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Wells Fargo to pay $3.7B for mistreating customers

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Re: Wells Fargo to pay $3.7B for mistreating customers

#331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it really true that previous generations didn't have to sacrifice to buy homes? That seems patently false to me. Take a look at average home price by year: https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/research/average-house-price... Now compare that to average wages: https://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/awidevelop.html

Now look at the double digit interest rates they paid on those mortgages. You pay the monthly payment, the top line number is largely irrelevant. https://www.atlanticbay.com/knowledge-center/history-of-mort... .

They didn’t have cellphone or internet bills. Financing cars wasn’t really a thing.

Trade offs.

Re: Wells Fargo to pay $3.7B for mistreating customers

#332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK well tech comp is very much not that high in the UK, so I guess we're not all in the same boat here. But the fact remains that things are objectively, numerically harder for us, and getting a lesson in life from those who had it easier is not very convincing.

// But the fact remains that things are objectively, numerically harder for us So I never dug into this before but I found this interesting chart from the US government [1] It does seem like a relatively smaller percentage of young people own homes today vs 40 years ago - but not as shocking as you'd imply: Percentage of people Percentage of 35-40 who own a home: 1982: 70% 2021: 62% So while the trend is down - it st…

Small sample size, but many of the people that I know that are that age and own a home inherited it, they didn’t buy it.

Re: Wells Fargo to pay $3.7B for mistreating customers

#333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m leaving for Western Europe, all of the tools I need for advocacy and accountability work just fine from over there (laptop and mobile device are all that is required). I’m unable to run for office, I am not an ideal candidate for various reasons. I want the country improved long term, but am unwilling to suffer in the short term because of, for lack of a better words, the malevolent and troglodytes. In the case o…

I don’t anticipate taking advantage of the advice, but can you share any references on navigating such a long term move to Europe? I’ve been told Portugal is a good starting point.

https://youtube.com/@OurRichJourney (Specially the videos about Portugal, not general investing advice videos)

https://old.reddit.com/r/expatFIRE (search for “Portugal D7 visa”)

Re: Wells Fargo to pay $3.7B for mistreating customers

#334
post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

// You'll surely make it if you just "work hard enough," wink wink. Working a 9-5 career is (and has been) a net negative ROI for at least 2 decades, if not more. Counterpoint - tech professional about 20 years out of college. Just bought a house in a nice suburb of NYC and all my neighbors are likewise working professionals. Some are in medicine, some in tech, some in things like construction management and educatio…

I mean you’re a gen X-er, it makes sense that you have zero idea what people that graduated college in 2008 went through. For context, people that had degrees in comp sci were working as Best Buy’s Geek Squad. On the bright side, you timed the dot-com dip perfectly!

> makes sense that you have zero idea what people that graduated college in 2008 went through.

Eh, I'm someone who graduated high school around that time and have a similar experience. Many of my peers have houses and work well paying 9-5's and have families and save for the future. They don't live in San Francisco though. There's plenty of homes for sale and tech jobs in markets that aren't Manhattan or Silicon Valley.

Re: Wells Fargo to pay $3.7B for mistreating customers

#335
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing forcing anybody to bank with Wells Fargo. Their customers are clearly content, because they're still Wells Fargo customers. Edit: shit, someone else pointed out that they buy mortgages. Nevermind.

My oldest credit file is a credit card that I don't use anymore but it is owned by WF. If I close it, my credit score is negatively impacted by losing a decades old credit line. I don't particularly care about my credit score, and this sort of lock-in is pretty low friction, but changing banks can have costs. I hate them, over the years that I banked with them, they have consistently been a bad bank. I think I have a…

Can you tell me about your experience with the CFPB. I just submitted a complaint against "Cardmember Services" who is the defacto disputing group on behalf of many banks. Cardmember Services does not seem to be acting in good faith which prompted my complaint.

Re: Wells Fargo to pay $3.7B for mistreating customers

#336

Some good reading on Wells Fargo: https://www.theroot.com/ghetto-loans-for-mud-people-17908695... And a little story from my own experience. I was completely broke, and they slapped me with a big fine for not having enough money in my account. Then the teller smugly explained that I should be thankful because they could have fined me even more if they wanted to... I closed my account at that point. And for people who…

How in the hell is it legal to charge someone a fee for having a balance below $X?

Different types of accounts offer different types of incentives.

Your standard free checking account won't have a minimum balance, but also isn't going to be earning any interest worth mentioning.

On the other hand, there are account types with higher interest earnings rates or other perks which require that you maintain a minimum balance. The minimum balance ensures that the bank is able to use the money in its other investments, which is why you are rewarded with higher tier perks.

Dropping below the minimum balance means that you haven't kept up your end of the bargain, so to speak. For example, the Way2Save savings account has a small monthly fee which is waived as long as you maintain a $300 minimum daily balance, or have automatic transfers, are under 24 years old, etc. The "Platinum" savings account tier has a $12 monthly fee which is waived only if you maintain $3,500.

It is of course worth noting that the "perks" of these savings accounts are practically worthless- the earnings interest rates are far below inflation.

Re: Wells Fargo to pay $3.7B for mistreating customers

#337
post #139
post #9

I feel so much cognitive dissonance realizing that there are hard working people literally losing their home and shelter wrongly while I might be sitting across from them at any time, expecting them to behave within normal social boundaries. Imagine a family with a new born, working 50+ hours at a physically demanding job, making $80k/yr combined, and then losing their home for no reason... and then being expected to…

I can’t even afford a home right now on a tech salary with sky high rent paying off my landlords 2% refi’d mortgage and student loans making it impossible at 6-7% fed interest rate hikes and inflated home prices after the insane COVID housing price bubble increase. I feel like life won’t start for another 5+ years for people like me, unless we gamble on being underwater on an inflated mortgage entering at the peak of…

I dunno, I "guess" I'm the previous generation. It sucked back when my parents bought their home at 9%, and we thought we got an amazing deal at 6%. Then things happened and interest went down and everybody refinanced a few times as it dropped.

Before we bought a house we rented a bedroom in somebody else's house, then a crappy apartment and bought basically nothing else. It sucked, but we lived below our means and saved up. It took a few years, and then we were in.

I think that two things are simultaneously true:

1 - The housing situation isn't great today and isn't getting better.

2 - The up and coming generation has unrealistic expectations of what it's taken to get into home ownership based on stories from very out of date economic conditions from before the Vietnam war and some strange ideas that they should be able to buy a single family home in the central business district of a big city for 30% of minimum wage.

Here's the tip: Live well under your means, grind hard, commute long distances, rent the cheapest place you can practically live in, and save your money. When you have 20% of a house, buy it, refinance if you can for lower rates, grind hard, commute long distances, and save your money. Turn the growth in equity from that house and the new money you saved to buy either what you want or where you want. This is how it's worked in most medium-big metro areas for at least three generations.

Here's how to action this tip (assuming the Bay Area):

The average 30-year Mortgage Rate since 1971 is 7.76% -- that's your baseline.

20% down on a $800k is $160k -- if you live around the Bay Area, that's your target. Why? That's around the jumbo loan limit for the Bay Area (check your local limits). This is how you get the lowest rate.

I checked, there are plentiful properties under that amount, within commuting distance from San Francisco. Commuting distance should be calibrated at under 90 minutes each way during off-peak traffic conditions. Either travel early or late. I picked both Oakland and Lafayette/Walnut Creek areas.

Assuming you make Bay Area pay as an engineer, it's not unreasonable to assume you bring home more than $100k after taxes. We'll use $100k to make it simple.

Rent should be around 30% of your income. I found plenty of current listings where you can live by yourself within commuting distance of downtown San Francisco that are under $2000/mo. You can always room with somebody, or look for single room rentals.

Looking up some average cost of living indexes let's say it costs about $2500/mo to exist. So we need about $4500/mo.

That leaves us with $46k/yr in raw savings towards that down payment. That's 3.5 years of tough disciplined savings. Voila, you can buy a home.

You said you have student loans? Okay, looks like you did the math, 5-6 years is not unreasonable. Voila, you can buy a property.

Get a roommate, a live in significant other, or a spouse, and you can dramatically reduce these numbers by increasing income and/or lowering living costs. Voila you can buy a property.

Over 3-6 years you'll most likely get raises, bonuses, and other opportunities. Voila you can buy a property.

This pattern has been remarkably persistent since the 70s at least. It sucks, but it's what it is.

Re: Wells Fargo to pay $3.7B for mistreating customers

#338
post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, but the comparison was to a 9-to-5 job, not gambling.

That's even more of a no-brainer, as an average 9-5 has practically zero upside, so your net worth is likely to stay flat (if not even go down). We like to pretend that the /r/wallstreetbets or crypto people are crazy, but most are median earners that feel that there's no way to break out without gambling. When we look at the housing situation, most are sadly right. What do people want? To marry a cute girl, buy a ho…

> That's even more of a no-brainer, as an average 9-5 has practically zero upside, so your net worth is likely to stay flat (if not even go down).

The average millionaire is just a schmuck with a high paying 9-5 job. Doctors, lawyers, engineers, generic corporate drones etc. I don't know where you got the idea that it's impossible to make more than a subsistence wage with a W2 job but you are wrong.

Re: Wells Fargo to pay $3.7B for mistreating customers

#339
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [...] doing your own startup is one of the few relatively low risk gambles one can take. I was under the impression that around 90% of startups failed. Was I mistaken, have the numbers changed, or do we just have very different thresholds for "low risk"?

I have started a number of businesses, even what I considered the unsuccessful ones still made me more money than I would have made at any 9-5 I could have had at the time. You just have to be willing to do something boring and compete against businesses that aren’t currently being run well. Starting the 7,000th craft beer company is gonna be really hard but (for example) being the #1 powerwashing company in your tow…

What makes you think being the #1 powerwashing company is going to be any easier than making an equivalent amount of money in the corporate world? Do you have any reason to believe you are better at powerwashing than the other 99 guys in your town?

Re: Wells Fargo to pay $3.7B for mistreating customers

#340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is all happening because Obama didn't have the balls to just let the shoddy banks crash and burn, and we continued QE for around a decade to alleviate blowback from 2008. This, combined with other factors (a lax policy w.r.t. foreign investments in real estate), will screw us in the long run. It also happened because most of the FBI agents who worked on white-collar fraud prior to 9/11 were reassigned to count…

This is an interesting take that I’ve never really heard before. It makes intuitive sense, but do you have anything more in depth to read on it? Book or article or longer version of the argument, or a history of some kind? Very curious, thanks.

Not the original poster, but the book "The Best Way to Rob a Bank is to Own One" by William K. Black (former bank regulator during the S&L crisis) might shed some light onto the S&L crisis, if not 2008's comparative response, though not directly.
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