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The Fermi paradox revisited: Technosignatures and the contact era

arxiv.org

291–300 of 353 posts

Re: The Fermi paradox revisited: Technosignatures and the contact era

#291
post #163

Focusing on radio communications for SETI purposes and as a solution to the Fermi Paradox I find to be incredibly outdated thinking. Let me summarize: 1. Planets are incredibly inefficient in creating living area per unit mass; 2. Orbitals are incredibly efficient at creating living area per unit mass. IIRC 1% of Mercury's mass could create a full Dyson Swarm around the sun and have billions of times of the living ar…

You're ignoring the temporal aspect. A dyson swarm would be visible thousands of light years away, thousands of years after it happened. Humans current technological kick start has only been going on for a hundred or so years. Our entire known history, complete with dark ages, is a few thousand years. By the time something even sees it, who knows how much such a civilization will have changed. Would the dyson swarm e…

You touch on a couple of issues.

The first is that civilizations tend to be short-lived. There are only really two ways out of this: they wipe themselves out or they somehow "transcend". "Transcending" is a trope of sci-fi (eg David Brin's Startide Rising series, the Iain M. Banks Culture series) but it's very handwavy. We really have no conception of what that might be. Living in the quantum world? Higher dimensions? This is really the sci-fi version of godhood.

As for wiping ourselves out, that's becoming increasingly harder. We are currently in the latter stages of it being possible to wipe out humanity, despite all the talk of Armageddon. If would really take a large cosmic event at this point. I'm talking the Earth being hit by a truly massive object, the kind that puts the dinosaur-killing asteroid to shame.

Things like nuclear war, biological wars, disease, etc could be truly devastating but kill every last one of us? Easier said than done. It would really take making the Earth truly uninhabitable.

Now another K2 civilization currently has the ability to wipe us out by virtue of the huge amounts of energy they have. Two talked about forms are the Nicoll-Dyson beam (quite literally, turning the energy of a star into something that would bather the target in radiation) and relativistic kill missiles.

Barring some major disaster, in 1000 years this is unlikely to be the case, particularly if we reach other stars.

Of course there's something we might not be able to conceive of but this too feels very handwavy.

The second thing is the Fermi Parai Paradox itself. You can argue that not every civilization goes the Dyson Swarm route or even continues to grow. Some might fade into irrelevance. There are a bunch of possibilities. But we're not concerned with what's likely or expected.

Imagine if there were 5 civilizations in the Milky Way. What are the odds that none of them become K2 civilizations and surviving long term? There's some nonzero possibility. But what if there were 1000 civilizations? As N gets higher the probability that zero of them become long-lived K2 civilizations starts approaching zero.

We look around us and see... nothing. That doesn't mean there's no one out there but it looks increasingly likely the galaxy isn't teeming with spacefaring life. I, for one, think it's most likely that we are the only spacefaring civilization in the Milky Way, at least within our light cone (which means much the same thing).

Re: The Fermi paradox revisited: Technosignatures and the contact era

#292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It routinely bothers me a bit that, IME, most IRL discussions of the Fermi Paradox settle on this rather simple explanation when the whole idea was that this "simple explanation" was extremely unlikely, pushing speculation to more complicated and interesting hypotheses. Emergence of life on Earth took 13.7 billion years, galactic colonization should only take millions of years. We should not expect to find the galaxy…

> Emergence of life on Earth took 13.7 billion years 13.7 billion years? Isn't that the age of the universe, and didn't life emerge on Earth only after about a billion years?

The formation of Earth wouldn't have been the starting gun for alien life evolving somewhere other than Earth.

Re: The Fermi paradox revisited: Technosignatures and the contact era

#293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are talking about a dark forest then it is more opf the idea that any other sufficiently advanced civilization would simply destroy you as soon as you are known to them rather than attempting to consume any potential resources you have as that isn't economical. The most economical thing could be as simple as sending a small object at light speed through your sun to cause a supernova. This eliminates you as a p…

While your main point stands, I doubt that crashing even a moderately sized planetoid into a star at any achievable speed would do much to that star. It definitely wouldn't cause a normal supernova. You might be able to produce some nasty radiation/ionized crap/relativistic debris that would be unpleasant for that greenish scum clinging to some of the planets, but it'd be a really expensive way to do even that. Sure,…

maybe not a planet but a mini blackhole tugged by a small ship at high velocity to crash into your sun and turn it into a proper black-hole with accretion disc and the works would do some serious damage to you as a species.

personally I'd go for something like a nanobot gray goo thing that infects & turns everything it touches in a given gravity well. then send over a bunch of ships to wipe out remaining stragglers.

Re: The Fermi paradox revisited: Technosignatures and the contact era

#294
post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're ignoring the temporal aspect. A dyson swarm would be visible thousands of light years away, thousands of years after it happened. Humans current technological kick start has only been going on for a hundred or so years. Our entire known history, complete with dark ages, is a few thousand years. By the time something even sees it, who knows how much such a civilization will have changed. Would the dyson swarm e…

You touch on a couple of issues. The first is that civilizations tend to be short-lived. There are only really two ways out of this: they wipe themselves out or they somehow "transcend". "Transcending" is a trope of sci-fi (eg David Brin's Startide Rising series, the Iain M. Banks Culture series) but it's very handwavy. We really have no conception of what that might be. Living in the quantum world? Higher dimensions…

> I, for one, think it's most likely that we are the only spacefaring civilization in the Milky Way, at least within our light cone (which means much the same thing).

I suggest you take the time to better understand what a light cone is. Your light cone is much, much larger than the milky way, indescribably larger, and it is a 4 dimensional space.

Re: The Fermi paradox revisited: Technosignatures and the contact era

#295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if they are in our own Solar system. But you can easily imagine a supercivilization visiting lots of solar systems, but not establishing permanent colonies everywhere. As I said, what if 5% of the solar systems are teaming with life? That would still be tens of millions of solar systems in our galaxy. The diversity of life could be something to make Star Wars look unimaginative. And we'd have no idea they are ou…

What kind of argument is this "only if they are in our own solar system"? Even at the speed of Voyager 2, (15km/s), in a billion years it would cover about 4 * 10^17 km or about 40 thousand light years. I am pretty sure people who have been developing for hundreds of millions of years can do better than that, by orders of magnitude. Also you put a totally strange assumption that all civilisations will only restrict t…

Stars move relative to each other. You won't need much higher speeds than what we can already achieve, as long as you're willing to wait for another star to move nearby.

Re: The Fermi paradox revisited: Technosignatures and the contact era

#296
post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the dark forest hypothesis is true, you can bet any civilization advanced enough to detect us will go out of their way to avoid being detected by us. For all we know, there could be a gigantic tungsten rod slowly and purposefully accelerating toward us that would destroy all life on earth in ten thousand years, and we'd have no way of knowing.

Why a tungsten rod in particular?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_bombardment

Re: The Fermi paradox revisited: Technosignatures and the contact era

#297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

its inverse square falloff for radio energy dissipation so I'd say it goes away really really quickly. also you have the problem of overcoming Sun's 'blaring' background signal unless you took your signal generator and placed it outside of oort cloud or further.

Yes, why not the oort cloud! It might take a decade or two to get them out there, but completely within our current technical capabilities.

oort cloud is just a stand-in for generating enough parallax in the signal from sun. further out you go better it would be. in fact it just occurred to me that you could just launch an emitter perpendicular to galactic plane with enough velocity that it bobbles up and down say 3x over what a normal star would and it would serve as a galactic lighthouse for intelligent civilization.

Re: The Fermi paradox revisited: Technosignatures and the contact era

#298
post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the dark forest hypothesis is true, you can bet any civilization advanced enough to detect us will go out of their way to avoid being detected by us. For all we know, there could be a gigantic tungsten rod slowly and purposefully accelerating toward us that would destroy all life on earth in ten thousand years, and we'd have no way of knowing.

Why a tungsten rod in particular?

Presumably because it's high density and thus higher destructiveness vs detectability?

Although I guess they could also just paint their weapon black.

A different matter how they hide the engine's infrared signature. Perhaps by just not running it when approaching, except for the final course corrections.

Re: The Fermi paradox revisited: Technosignatures and the contact era

#299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they're approaching us, they might be using the Orion engine to decelerate on long final.

Here's an amusing thing. Even if they were within Jupiter's orbit and decelerating and pointing straight at us, we wouldn't be able to detect them. Nuclear bombs produce a fireball here on Earth. In the first microsecond when the explosion actually happens, they produce gamma rays and X rays. The atmosphere is opaque to those rays, which is to say, it absorbs them. Their energy is enormous, so the part of the atmosph…

Rocket propulsion benefits from directional discharge.

Project Orion lead to the investigation prospects for nuclear shaped charges, in which the blast is highly directional. The concept was developed further in the colourfully-named "Casaba-Howitzer":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casaba-Howitzer>

Odds are reasonably good that any space-faring civilisation would create similarly directional reaction devices for space travel if they were utilising explosive nuclear fission.

... Though, thinking this through, the shaped charge would probably be directed at rather than away from the pusher-plate in an Orion design. There might of course be other directed reaction-engine designs. They'd be generating similar-magnitude energy signatures, however, and again, in a deceleration phase, would be directed toward us.

And whilst naked eye observations would of course be difficult, that's really not what we're talking about, but instead sensors which could pick up specific radiation. And I strongly suspect that sudden-onset x-ray and gamma-ray sources within the Solar System would in fact be detectable.

(It was devices that were looking for such bursts on and near Earth from Earth orbit via the Vela satellites as part of nuclear war early-warning systems which first detected astronomical gamma-ray bursts.)

Given that small meteor impacts on the Moon are quite detectable from Earth, nukes near Jupiter should be readily detectable. A 2013 lunar meteor impact from what's thought to have been a 40kg mass traveling at 25 km/s was visible to the naked eye as a 4th magnitude event. That's about 5 tons TNT equivalent.

https://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2013/1...>

The Orion concept was based on 0.15 kt (150 ton TNT) charges, or 30x larger than the meteor impact discussed here, exploding repeated at a rate of 1 Hz. That would be a pretty significant signature.

Re: The Fermi paradox revisited: Technosignatures and the contact era

#300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you explain it happening exactly once? If it’s vanishingly unlikely, but space is incomprehensibly huge and time is vastly long, then it happening exactly once is extremely improbable. 0 times, believable. But those probabilities yielding 1 life event must mean 2 life events is also possible, no? Or 3? Or 100? Why so confident it’s exactly 1?

All that's required to explain the Fermi Paradox is that it happen < 1 in an observable volume of the universe. The volume of the universe in which OoL could happen could be vastly larger, but we could never see most of it. Each extremely rare occurrence of intelligent life would never be able to contact any other, as they'd never be causally connected by signals traveling at the speed of light.

This is my thought as well.
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