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Server stats say movetodon.org reached a new record of 49k users yesterday

mastodon.social

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Re: Server stats say movetodon.org reached a new record of 49k users yesterday

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How could it replace Twitter? Even the Mastodon devotees admit it can't scale to that level and the sign-up process will turn off most users before they even get started.

Maybe I could pose this question another way, what does Twitter do that Mastodon can't?

A lot of things. Whether they are good or bad things is another question.

For now, Twitter scales better. There's no such thing as an instance, a slow instance, or registration simply being closed.

Twitter preserves content. Yes, I know it's currently debatable, but in general it does. On Mastodon, any instance can go the way of the dodo, and this regularly happens. Further, it's standard policy to wipe out all media attached to your toots. I think this point is a big deal. Your content simply isn't safe on Mastodon.

Mastodon has poor on-boarding. You need to pick an instance which a normie doesn't understand. Further, it has no (good) algorithms for recommended content, followers, finding people you already know. You have to bolt and stitch things together. This too is a massive issue in the age of Tiktok, where even the effort of lifting a finger is too much. I think organically building up your feed is actually great, but you have to understand that the HN audience is not the same as the masses.

Mastodon has no consistent moderation. Yes, you could argue neither has Twitter, but it's still consistent-enough compared to Mastodon, where you're at the helm of whichever volunteer runs the instance. Not necessarily an issue for middle-of-the-road conversations, but still a difference.

Lastly, and this is perhaps the most twisted point: Mastodon isn't designed for drama. Twitter is hyper optimized for it. It's quite the culture shock for some.

Re: Server stats say movetodon.org reached a new record of 49k users yesterday

#142
post #5

It seems the Mastodon ecosystem has serious problems scaling. Most of the servers are closed to registrations, and we are just talking about a couple million new users over 2 months. What if 100 mil users want to move? Are we going to relive the Twitter history, which crashed every time Justin Bieber tweeted?

I've tried telling people before that the Fediverse doesn't scale, that decentralized solutions where nobody is paying for anything only work for flashcrowds (i.e. torrents), and ultimately this is going nowhere... but nobody wants to hear it. Everyone is sure that "torrents work, so this will work", neverminding the fact that the entire peer-to-peer ecosystem only works as long as there are people to seed, seeding c…

Agreed. However, if Mastodon instances hosted attached media/images over IPFS, in theory it would lead to a significant decrease in bandwidth that those instances need to transfer themselves, as that media could be distributed p2p between users who have loaded it already.

Thankfully, there already is work being done to implement this kind of functionality, giving instances the option to serve images over IPFS gateways. Further decentralizing Mastodon needs to be a very high priority for it to be sustainable longer term.

Re: Server stats say movetodon.org reached a new record of 49k users yesterday

#143
post #8

Mastodon is not and will not ever be a replacement for Twitter. Twitter's too large and the people who had bleu checks before the $7.99 fee are addicted to attention, validation, and/or lording their bleu check status over others. That's why Mastodon won't replace it. Sure, a few small (relative to Twitter) alternative Mastodon instances will pop up, but no real challenger or contender for the throne.

> the people who had bleu checks before the $7.99 fee are addicted to attention, validation, and/or lording their bleu check status over others. This is not a thing people regularly did? Old-school blue checks were never a status symbol, just a way Twitter used to denote "real" (meaning from-the-author-stated) and "fake" (real-humans-parodying-someone-else) accounts. The idea that they denoted status was a criticism…

Despite it not being their stated purpose, they absolutely were a bit of a status symbol, though one that waned as more of them were given out of course. People routinely complained (both jokingly and seriously) about not being verified. It's not that rich and famous people needed the tiny bit of bonus (though some of them probably did), but that it was a marker of notability for less famous people. It's kind of like appearing in a crossword clue.

The thing about putting the badge into Twitter Blue is that it makes it not a status symbol: both because it's just generally accessible (so even what little cachet you might agree it previously implied is now gone) and because for many you might see "enthusiastic about Elon Twitter" as an negative signal.

There's a whole separate axis to this where it was clearly easier to get verified as a mainstream journalist than for many other kinds of professions or claims to fame (understandable both just under the basic "verification" goals and for presumably being pretty easy to actually verify as such things go). Much "anti-blue-check" sentiment is just the same familiar fights over the media, simply filtered through Twitter's systems.

Re: Server stats say movetodon.org reached a new record of 49k users yesterday

#144
post #5

It seems the Mastodon ecosystem has serious problems scaling. Most of the servers are closed to registrations, and we are just talking about a couple million new users over 2 months. What if 100 mil users want to move? Are we going to relive the Twitter history, which crashed every time Justin Bieber tweeted?

I've tried telling people before that the Fediverse doesn't scale, that decentralized solutions where nobody is paying for anything only work for flashcrowds (i.e. torrents), and ultimately this is going nowhere... but nobody wants to hear it. Everyone is sure that "torrents work, so this will work", neverminding the fact that the entire peer-to-peer ecosystem only works as long as there are people to seed, seeding c…

I will join you in your unpopular opinion. People have become so entitled that they can't appreciate the value they have in their hands today.

Services like Twitter, Insta, FB, the like are in many ways incredible. We've forgotten all about that, but let's explore...

They're pretty much always available. They scale endlessly without you noticing. They are fast. They have apps on every touch point. They preserve your content pretty much forever, and this content exponentially grows. They have armies of people as well as advanced AI to filter out the most horrible of human depravities, so that you don't get to see it.

And for all of this, you don't pay a single penny. Yes, you'll get a few ads. You can even block those. An incredible amount of value offered, for near-zero costs.

Re: Server stats say movetodon.org reached a new record of 49k users yesterday

#145
post #5

It seems the Mastodon ecosystem has serious problems scaling. Most of the servers are closed to registrations, and we are just talking about a couple million new users over 2 months. What if 100 mil users want to move? Are we going to relive the Twitter history, which crashed every time Justin Bieber tweeted?

I've tried telling people before that the Fediverse doesn't scale, that decentralized solutions where nobody is paying for anything only work for flashcrowds (i.e. torrents), and ultimately this is going nowhere... but nobody wants to hear it. Everyone is sure that "torrents work, so this will work", neverminding the fact that the entire peer-to-peer ecosystem only works as long as there are people to seed, seeding c…

Maybe side effects of scaling are what Mastodon users are trying to leave behind.

Re: Server stats say movetodon.org reached a new record of 49k users yesterday

#146
post #5

It seems the Mastodon ecosystem has serious problems scaling. Most of the servers are closed to registrations, and we are just talking about a couple million new users over 2 months. What if 100 mil users want to move? Are we going to relive the Twitter history, which crashed every time Justin Bieber tweeted?

> What if 100 mil users want to move?

Then supply and demand will dictate that people will start paying for accounts, and that will be a good thing.

Re: Server stats say movetodon.org reached a new record of 49k users yesterday

#147
post #23
post #5

It seems the Mastodon ecosystem has serious problems scaling. Most of the servers are closed to registrations, and we are just talking about a couple million new users over 2 months. What if 100 mil users want to move? Are we going to relive the Twitter history, which crashed every time Justin Bieber tweeted?

> What if 100 mil users want to move? Some of the new users will have to run new servers. For example if public officials are moving to Mastodon, I expect the state to run their own servers. It was never a good idea to allow Twitter to be a platform for (semi-)official communication.

Which will then need to federate to most other instances, causing an unmanagable load?

Re: Server stats say movetodon.org reached a new record of 49k users yesterday

#148
post #5

It seems the Mastodon ecosystem has serious problems scaling. Most of the servers are closed to registrations, and we are just talking about a couple million new users over 2 months. What if 100 mil users want to move? Are we going to relive the Twitter history, which crashed every time Justin Bieber tweeted?

That's a feature, not a bug. Each server in the fediverse should stay relatively small. Consider running your own for your friends.

Serious question: if a community is so small as to be just your friends, why not start a Whatsapp, Telegram, Discord group? Free, fully managed, content preserved, well established.

Re: Server stats say movetodon.org reached a new record of 49k users yesterday

#149
post #5

It seems the Mastodon ecosystem has serious problems scaling. Most of the servers are closed to registrations, and we are just talking about a couple million new users over 2 months. What if 100 mil users want to move? Are we going to relive the Twitter history, which crashed every time Justin Bieber tweeted?

I've tried telling people before that the Fediverse doesn't scale, that decentralized solutions where nobody is paying for anything only work for flashcrowds (i.e. torrents), and ultimately this is going nowhere... but nobody wants to hear it. Everyone is sure that "torrents work, so this will work", neverminding the fact that the entire peer-to-peer ecosystem only works as long as there are people to seed, seeding c…

I think there are some differences that are key.

1. The fediverse doesn't necessarily need to scale to 100 million or more people, and if it were to hypothetically hit a hard limit at 10 million, that would still be fine. Anecdotally, many people are reporting similar levels of engagement--and more positive engagement--with even a small percentage of their twitter audience.

2. Usenet failed largely because it was overrun with spam. While Fediverse moderation is distributed and therefore inefficient, it's still done, so spam doesn't seem likely to overrun anything. In theory, each server moderator moderates their own server, and any servers that don't end up blocked.

3. At least at this point in time, people seem to be willing to pay for their own servers. Many servers are running patreon accounts or similar, and most I'm aware of are running a surplus of funds. Of course, that might not always be true. Smaller server are very cheap to run.

4. I wouldn't think of torrents as an example, but rather the web itself. So so so many individual websites are out there being paid for out of pocket, and nobody seems to be worried about them all failing at once.

Re: Server stats say movetodon.org reached a new record of 49k users yesterday

#150
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two observations: (1) maybe it doesn't need to scale for people to ultimately have a much better experience and (2) bottlenecks tend to be identified and resolved up to the limit of the scaling laws and hardware improvements, bandwidth cost reduction and storage cost reduction tend to over time make the impossible thing from yesterday feasible today. Keep in mind that Torrents tend to be much larger than your average…

Being based around a protocol rather than a single piece of software, it will likely end up that servers intended to grow large will run different software than servers intended to stay small.

I suspect that key to the future of the fediverse is likely to be a more efficient piece of software than mastodon.
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