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Epic Games to pay $520M to resolve FTC allegations

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Re: Epic Games to pay $520M to resolve FTC allegations

#101

Post by 72deluxe »

otachack wrote: post #67
72deluxe wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not have children but I could not imagine my parents leaving me with unfettered access to a TV at age 4. If the Internet had been around, they certainly wouldn't have given me an internet-enabled device and left me by myself. How is playing games online where you can communicate with random people across the world without any sort of parental supervision possibly a good idea?? And why is it someone else's proble…

I'm also not a parent or a teacher. And I try my best to not give parenting advice to actual parents. It helps to remember that life is complicated and there are limitless factors that can contribute to a family dynamic. Growing up my parents barely knew what the internet was and just associated it with "the computer". They attuned it as a "toy" and nothing serious. This allowed me unfiltered access to anything that…

Yes that's a good point that people aren't necessarily clued up on the intricacies of the technology they're liberally giving to their children, but that still doesn't negate actual supervision. It's like handing a handsaw to your child and then wandering off.

And my main point that supervision and parenting go hand in hand doesn't require me to be a parent to know that, in the same way that I know that a handsaw can be dangerous yet I am not a carpenter. You don't need to be Parent of the Year or a genius to know that leaving children unsupervised with something can go very badly, like leaving them to play with plug sockets... My parents didn't need to get to their second child to learn that - it's obvious.

I'm not sure how else I could possibly word it to make such an obvious point more palatable, even though I am no expert in parenting. (I do have cats though and I know not to leave ANYTHING out because they wreck it.... That also doesn't take much to work out even if you don't own cats!)

Re: Epic Games to pay $520M to resolve FTC allegations

#102

Post by GeekyBear »

>Until late 2018, for instance, Epic automatically stored the credit card information for anyone who made a single purchase in Fortnite and didn't require the CVV security information for further purchases. That made it easy for many children to make additional purchases without their parents' consent, according to the FTC.

Epic also drew criticism from the FTC for putting the "Purchase" button for in-game items right next to the "preview styles" button and offering no subsequent purchase confirmation prompt in the case of misplaced clicks. And while Epic introduced an "Undo Purchase" button in July 2019, it was eventually made much less prominent and harder for customers to find.

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2022/12/epic-will-pay-520-mil...

This is a company that should be able to bypass app store restrictions?

Re: Epic Games to pay $520M to resolve FTC allegations

#103

Post by Dalewyn »

CivBase wrote: post #71
ThisNameNotUsed wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

13 is nothing like 10, or 8. I have nephews playing on their own at 4.

At some point we have to consider it the parent's/guardian's responsibility to restrict a child's access to any service that provides access to online, user-generated content without supervision. Despite all my problems with Epic, I agree with OP here. This should not be Epic's problem. This is a problem for parents/guardians and the ESRB/PEGI. The ESRB and PEGI rated the game for 13+ and 12+ respectively, which I'd…

Translating what FTC is saying to plain English, FTC is saying Epic didn't do enough to move liability away from them (Epic) and onto the parents/guardian. The liability ball was still in Epic's court, so FTC fined them.

If Epic had some form of age verification in place, past that point it's the parents'/guardian's problem whether the kid lies or the kid asks them to give their authorization. The liability ball would be in the parents'/guardian's court.

It's why all software and websites that handle data coming from underage kids always verify age or straight up don't handle that data (eg: Youtube Kids videos' comments, the lack thereof) at all.

Obligatory IANAL.

Re: Epic Games to pay $520M to resolve FTC allegations

#104

Post by jasmer »

Gareth321 wrote: post #4

I'm fine with Epic getting financially reprimanded for dark patterns and anti-consumer behaviour. I am not on board with this: > That lawsuit also accused the company of illegally enabling real-time voice and text chat communications for children and teens in the game by default. So voice chat must now be turned off by default for all children across America? How on earth is this supposed to be policed? Should everyo…

Huh? That's the easiest one of all - anything that is privacy invading should be off by default. Most of us are not super aware of what the hell is 'on and off' in this nutty world.

It's exceedingly nuts to me that I would start doing something and all of a sudden random strangers could hear me or interact with me.

Default off for everyone, probably by law.

Anyone can just turn the default to be 'on' it's not a big deal.

Re: Epic Games to pay $520M to resolve FTC allegations

#105

Post by freejazz »

Gareth321 wrote: post #4

I'm fine with Epic getting financially reprimanded for dark patterns and anti-consumer behaviour. I am not on board with this: > That lawsuit also accused the company of illegally enabling real-time voice and text chat communications for children and teens in the game by default. So voice chat must now be turned off by default for all children across America? How on earth is this supposed to be policed? Should everyo…

So, you are against any laws relating to the internet and children?

Re: Epic Games to pay $520M to resolve FTC allegations

#106

Post by whateveracct »

devmor wrote: post #40
ethanbond wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So just set it to off by default for everyone? That seems like a pretty pragmatic and very non-theatrical improvement. Of course it will have to contend with the theatrics of gamers whining about the immense hassle of a one-time settings change to enable voice chat.

"Off by default" is also a great way to make sure your feature is not used by the vast majority of people. It could easily lead to user attrition for new players looking for a social experience as well.

Ah yes, the classic "privacy/security/compliance hurts our funnel" argument. Said as if the former aren't more important than the latter.

Re: Epic Games to pay $520M to resolve FTC allegations

#107

Post by lapcat »

GeekyBear wrote: post #102

>Until late 2018, for instance, Epic automatically stored the credit card information for anyone who made a single purchase in Fortnite and didn't require the CVV security information for further purchases. That made it easy for many children to make additional purchases without their parents' consent, according to the FTC. Epic also drew criticism from the FTC for putting the "Purchase" button for in-game items righ…

> This is a company that should be able to bypass app store restrictions?

Every company should be able to bypass app store restrictions.

I don't think the question is even framed correctly. Every iPhone owner should be able to bypass app store restrictions. Developers doing so is just a consequence of consumer choice.

Re: Epic Games to pay $520M to resolve FTC allegations

#108

Post by bioemerl »

dagmx wrote: post #65

Epic’s own PR statement on this is worth a read https://www.epicgames.com/site/en-US/news/epic-ftc-settlemen...

There are so many immidiate contractions in this thing it makes my head spin.

Like one section here says "no loot boxes since 2019 and never gambling"

Loot boxes are gambling.

"We respect our players by making our game pay to win"

But when we breed a culture of bullying and use behavioral science to get you to purchase cosmetics, that's fine.

Slimy, the whole game industry is slimy.

Re: Epic Games to pay $520M to resolve FTC allegations

#109

Post by jasmer »

paxys wrote: post #100
Gareth321 wrote: post #4

I'm fine with Epic getting financially reprimanded for dark patterns and anti-consumer behaviour. I am not on board with this: > That lawsuit also accused the company of illegally enabling real-time voice and text chat communications for children and teens in the game by default. So voice chat must now be turned off by default for all children across America? How on earth is this supposed to be policed? Should everyo…

What's wrong with keeping voice chat off by default? That is a sensible approach for everyone, not just kids.

Exactly. It's extremely intrusive to have some random fool listening in on my own household, when I may be unaware. People have no idea how technology works, even smart people.

Default mic/camera etc. off - they can provided a nice little popup and have us turn it on.

Because companies will always push boundaries and cross the line, we need legislation unfortunately and can only hope the legislators don't fuck it up.

Re: Epic Games to pay $520M to resolve FTC allegations

#110

Post by BryantD »

CivBase wrote: post #71
ThisNameNotUsed wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

13 is nothing like 10, or 8. I have nephews playing on their own at 4.

At some point we have to consider it the parent's/guardian's responsibility to restrict a child's access to any service that provides access to online, user-generated content without supervision. Despite all my problems with Epic, I agree with OP here. This should not be Epic's problem. This is a problem for parents/guardians and the ESRB/PEGI. The ESRB and PEGI rated the game for 13+ and 12+ respectively, which I'd…

I’d recommend reading the complaint. To my surprise, regardless of the ratings, Epic was explicitly marketing to 10+. Like there are written statements to that effect.
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