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Why Startups Could Use .NET, But Don’t

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Re: Why Startups Could Use .NET, But Don’t

#11
I don't agree that it is mostly culture (and "ego").

Purchasing/licensing software is always a hassle. Even aside from the monetary cost, you need to decide which to buy, go through the purchase process, and sometimes you also have some activation hassle.

With open source software, you just download it and use it. If you decide to change to another version of the software or different software entirely, you just do that.

Startups are hard, removing anything that takes time or effort is a good thing.

But even with this, cost is still an issue. Yes, salaries are the biggest cost, but in a startup, you might be working for yourself, so no salaries are being paid. Having to shell out any money at all becomes something you avoid. (Yes, there are Microsoft programs to give you Microsoft software at very low prices. But the procedure for those programs is always more complicated than "download and run".)

Re: Why Startups Could Use .NET, But Don’t

#12
I don't think that's it, I like to think that many people desire to use C# but that ASP.NET is scaring them off.

There are also no success stories of Mono on the serverside. If I use Java, I can rest assured that Google and Twitter have solved those problems before me.

Even if you do client development: WPF is perceived to be the only choice for gui c# development, and WPF is pretty complicated.

As much as I dislike the (XML and other) bloat: Java seems like a safe choice to me. Plus, there are going to be new JVM based languages, like Ceylon.

Re: Why Startups Could Use .NET, But Don’t

#13
Stack Exchange comes to mind for me when I think .NET startup. I haven't worked with .NET much in the last 4-5 years, but there's obviously more out there. Maybe they don't spend time sharing.

If you ask me, customers don't care what you code in. Only that you solve a need they have.

Most languages are capable.

Most languages have capable frameworks.

Most have open source options.

If a Language+Framework saves you time in one way, it will probably take up some more time in some other place. You can find such examples in probably everything. Assuming reasonably equal developers in any language, choice of Language+Framework is generally preference and opinion.

Any capable developer can learn any Language+Framework. Some are quicker to pick up in the beginning. Some catch you long term if you don't learn them deep.

Very few startups are technically complex enough to benefit from a specific feature of just one platform, to justify that platform alone. Such technically complex enough startups typically use a number of technologies/languages together.

An interesting trend I've noticed is how so many culturally popular rapid development languages (Ruby, Python, Scala, etc.) are becoming a part of the polyglot world through the JVM (JRuby, Jython, etc.).

What would there be left to distract ourselves with from building a startup if Language+Framework was no longer something for us developers to keep ourselves busy with?

Re: Why Startups Could Use .NET, But Don’t

#14
"Essentially, the cost differences have become moot"

No, not really. I specifically ruled out .NET because BizSpark expires after 3 years or >1 million USD in annual revenue (whichever comes first).

I just don't see a ton of advantage to running .NET/SQLServer/etc over something like Java/PostgreSQL/etc. I'm sure some .NET dev will disagree.

There's just so much flexibility in being able to spin up as many instances as I want without licensing restrictions. For example, a .NET deployment might require larger instances to decrease the per-machine licensing costs, whereas I can do whatever-the-hell-I-want with an open source stack.

BizSpark is free only if you expect to not be around in 3 years.

Re: Why Startups Could Use .NET, But Don’t

#15
"At first glance, PHP and Ruby on Rails used to have a decided advantage on initial startup costs because they could be run using FOSS tools. However, Microsoft has been running their Bizspark program for a few years, which eliminates most of the startup costs normally associated with employing a .NET framework. Essentially, the cost differences have become moot."

Umm.... it just delays the cost. That's like saying putting something on a credit card is the same as getting something for free because both "cost" $0. You will end up paying to keep using those tools later on, but the thought is that in 3 years you'll be making enough that it won't matter. And that's probably a reasonable assumption, but it's now yet one more thing that you have to keep track of.

And... true, the cost is somewhat cheaper, but not everyone can take advantage of Bizspark in the first place. So... apply and wait, justify yourself, and perhaps get a pretty good deal on some MS software, or... just go use what a lot of other people are already using for free. It's not hard to see why open source tools win in a lot of situations.

Re: Why Startups Could Use .NET, But Don’t

#16
Greenspun had some great thoughts on this in 2009: http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2009/05/18/ruby-on-rails-...

Business Guy: Hands Microsoft a bunch of money, launches site on an ASP server with 64GB RAM. He is basically done with IT for the first few years of growth.

MIT Genius: Starts off trying to build a system that will scale, from the beginning. He creates about 6 months of IT work for himself. It works, eventually, but it was a lot harder than what the business guy had to do.

Re: Why Startups Could Use .NET, But Don’t

#17
The first blog post was uneducated and old arguments. Of course you can make 1.7 oz burgers, but only the best can do that with .NET.

But this blog post is just rambling... Why isn't .NET used? Non-techies making technical decisions, or they're hipsters and want to join the PHP or Ruby pain train.

The fact is, .NET can allow you to develop faster than anything else, so these folks are casting about for excuses.

The alternative? Try CodeIgniter for PHP... that's a decent framework!

Re: Why Startups Could Use .NET, But Don’t

#18
post #4

The culture is so important lately, that it is not only .Net Framework that is getting neglected, also Java. It seems start-ups feel that working with Ruby, Python or PHP is the best way to go for every problem. But I do believe is cultural. We are building a start-up with several pieces of the service in .Net. And it has been extremely fast for us development wise. We are a team of multidisciplinary developers, and…

Cultural, depending on your desktop platform. .NET doesn't have an official IDE on any platform than Windows—if you run Linux or Mac, it's too fucking bad. A lot of people who like *nix are precluded from it, without some sort of major workflow change. After getting excited about OSS languages, it's hard to just dump that and go full-stack Microsoft. Hell, a place I just interviewed at literally has everything throug…

Our production environment is running on Windows + IIS + .Net, but we are moving everything to Mono. It is working for us. We are working on a stack based on Debian + NGnix + Mono. We are already using PostgreSql and Mongodb as as a data storage; we use Git (@ Github) for our repositories, and TeamCity for CI.

I do agree, the OSS stack for .Net is not as nice as Microsoft's, but in my case I mostly do everything with Emacs anyways, so it doesn't bother me. MonoDevelop is not bad though.

Re: Why Startups Could Use .NET, But Don’t

#19
post #11

I don't agree that it is mostly culture (and "ego"). Purchasing/licensing software is always a hassle. Even aside from the monetary cost, you need to decide which to buy, go through the purchase process, and sometimes you also have some activation hassle. With open source software, you just download it and use it. If you decide to change to another version of the software or different software entirely, you just do t…

>Purchasing/licensing software is always a hassle. Even aside from the monetary cost, you need to decide which to buy, go through the purchase process, and sometimes you also have some activation hassle.

This. Navigating MS licensing is an absolute headache inducing time vampire for smaller organizations.

Re: Why Startups Could Use .NET, But Don’t

#20
post #9

Programmers may indeed lean toward using PHP, Python, or Ruby because of a cultural influence but I truly believe that the deciding factor is cost. New startups typically can't afford to use .NET because of the expense of licensing IDEs, MSSQL instances, etc. I do agree that programmers should be generalists so they can quickly adapt to new languages and frameworks.

Microsoft offers good deals to startups[1], so cost is less of a factor than you may think. However, most people start programming as a hobby before they start a company, so it wouldn't surprise me if the cost issue mainly factors in earlier in the chain (at the point where people learn e.g. MySQL instead of MSSQL because of pricing). Of course, Microsoft is doing its utmost to push their products to students and schools, because they are well aware of this issue. Hackers, on the other hand, like to experiment, so they will come across alternatives to MS products sooner or later.

There are plenty of successful startups on the Microsoft stack. Everybody knows about the Stack Overflow story, but there are a lot more examples under the radar. Especially little ventures started by business people (who sometimes seem to prefer the Microsoft stack) that do quite well financially, but may not be very innovative on a technical level. It is just as viable in terms of getting things done and that is the only thing that matters. Admittedly, it may be harder to find good hackers with .NET experience, but the same goes for Java these days and Facebook is even successful in hiring smart people that are willing to work with PHP. Java and .NET are obviously popular with uninspired "bread programmers" because they are the path of least resistance to a safe 9-to-5 job, but that doesn't mean that all Java or .NET work is boring (consider e.g. Java at Google or Twitter).

I wouldn't want to personally depend on the likes of Microsoft or Apple for my development stack because I wouldn't bet my company on anything that isn't free as in freedom, but from my point of view as a casual observer the .NET platform is a pretty impressive piece of technology. Just like some other initiatives by Microsoft, like MSSQL things that come out of Microsft Research (e.g. Simon Peyton-Jones is employed there).

1: http://www.microsoft.com/bizspark/

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