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Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

recurrentauto.com

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Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#291

Post by vel0city »

falcolas wrote: post #109
twobitshifter wrote: post #88

I can’t decide on my next car - Live in cold village on US east coast - ICE might be going obsolete - BEVs are improving quickly so what I buy might be superseded soon - feels almost like the early days of smartphones. - Gas prices are very high - Used and new car prices are unreasonably high - There’s not enough chargers to support the number of EVs being driven in my area leading to long waits. - I could charge at…

FWIW, my own investigations into this from a location that is currently 0: I’m going with a plug-in hybrid. There are precious few charging stations in the Midwest (especially those affiliated with the Subaru/Toyota brands), and a lot of miles between cities. A majority of my driving is inside the 45 mile range so the batteries, and the ability to fill up conventionally eases my worries about detours or delays. Hopef…

> There are precious few charging stations in the Midwest (especially those affiliated with the Subaru/Toyota brands)

If you're looking for things to be explicitly related for Subaru/Toyota, you'll be missing a lot. It's not like you buy gas at Toyota gas stations. Outside of Tesla and Nissan Leafs the brand doesn't matter.

A quick look at plugshare.com filtered for CCS chargers show lots of areas with pretty good coverage of chargers. Some places do get a bit sparse, but kind of following along in Google Maps it looks like those are kind of sparse areas in general. Sticking to mostly major highways would get you practically anywhere around the Midwest in an average CCS EV from what I can tell. Obviously, if you're only ever in those sparse areas you're gonna have a hard time.

I definitely don't know your particular needs so I can't truly say that you wouldn't have had a problem charging. I'm just throwing it out to other people that there are over several hundred CCS charging locations in the Midwest today, with more locations being built out constantly. Use tools like plugshare.com to know the places you tend to drive and reach your own conclusions on if an EV would work for you. I agree EVs can't serve every use case and need, you gotta see what's best for you.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#292

Post by d_runs_far »

everdrive wrote: post #138

I wish they did tests where cabin heat was minimized. Depending on what your temperatures are, driving a cold car might not be viable. But, it would be nice to know how much of the loss is due to cold itself, and how much of the loss is due to comfort.

First winter with a Kia Soul EV here - and at -20° C this past week, after about 10 minutes with just heated seats/steering wheel on and no fan/forced air heating, it starts fogging up and my feet (even in decent winter boots) start getting chilly.

Turn on the heater and crank the fan, and watch the range drop about 3-5km per increment on the fan dial.

Our other vehicle is an old Jeep Liberty with a V6; gas mileage drops on it as well in winter - combination of some pre-warming and using full time 4WD more. I've always planned for 20-40% less range since I started driving well over 30 years ago, it is just something you do living in a truly cold winter climate.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#293

Post by blonder »

hunter2_ wrote: post #214
tantony wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have owned a Model 3 in Iowa while living in an apartment with no garage. This was at the beginning of the Covid lockdown where it stayed unused for extended periods of time. The battery was cold-soaked in temps below 20F. Whenever I drove the car, I had almost zero regen-braking, reduced acceleration and the range was decreased by about 30%. For short commutes, that would persist throughout. But whenever I went on…

> almost zero regen-braking This is interesting. I wonder if large capacitors could alleviate this: somewhere to quickly dump the regen energy, and charge the battery with it at some slow rate equivalent to the long-term average regen load. Not only would it help in cold situations where the battery can't be charged quickly, but also situations where the battery would be healthier if not charged quickly, which is alw…

While not giving any energy back, Teslas can now detect when regen breaking is limited, and blend in the regular brakes for you, so that you don't have to change your driving style. It has only come out in the past couple of weeks, but I cannot tell the difference when regen is supposedly limited after enabling the feature. Before it was a little dangerous to have to modify your driving style and watch out for how much regen your car uses compared to its normal amount, since after a week of driving an EV in the summer you don't ever really touch the break pedal.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#294

Post by Reason077 »

rosnd wrote: post #279
Reason077 wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's to do with safety, not economics. Remote start on a combustion vehicle presents a carbon monoxide poisoning risk. This is perhaps more significant in Europe where more people park indoors and in confined spaces. Pretty much any EV in Europe has a remote cabin heating feature. If it were about energy and economics, wouldn't that be banned also?

> Pretty much any EV in Europe has a remote cabin heating feature Surely pretty much any equivalent gas car remote cabin heating too, it's a very common feature.

> "Surely pretty much any equivalent gas car remote cabin heating too, it's a very common feature."

Remote cabin heating in a gas car requires a "remote start" feature, which is illegal in many European countries - particularly Germany. This is not a common feature in Europe, except in EVs.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#295

Post by Reason077 »

nightski wrote: post #276
Reason077 wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's to do with safety, not economics. Remote start on a combustion vehicle presents a carbon monoxide poisoning risk. This is perhaps more significant in Europe where more people park indoors and in confined spaces. Pretty much any EV in Europe has a remote cabin heating feature. If it were about energy and economics, wouldn't that be banned also?

If you are parked indoors you don't need remote start. Our garage stays about 32F degrees even when it is -10F out. The entire point of remote start is for the case when you are parked outside, such as at work.

Sure, but is the car actually smart enough to detect when it's indoors and block remote start? Many countries ban or restrict remote start features due to the risk of carbon monoxide poisoning.

In any case, not all indoor parking is climate-controlled. It's nice to be able to remotely warm (or cool, in summer) the cabin to a pleasant temperature before you arrive! 32F is still pretty chilly.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#296

Post by m463 »

donatj wrote: post #42

As a Minnesotan with an unheated detached garage, I’d be very interested to know about -40°F performance. We get a couple of those days every year. I have been looking at my next car potentially being an EV and am really curious about the extremes.

I think a few things:

- even an unheated garage will have some thermal mass and not reach the wind chill temperatures outside. this can make a huge difference.

- plug in the car in the garage. most cars do thermal management and this keeps the battery warm and healthy without depleting its own charge.

- even when not plugged in, these cars will keep the batteries warm (using battery power to warm the battery)

- electric cars can run the heater and be toasty warm when you want to drive.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#297

Post by speedgoose »

bmicraft wrote: post #272
Symbiote wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> according to Statistics Norway, in 2021 almost 6,000 million kilometres driven by passenger cars were powered by electricity. The total number of kilometres driven by passenger cars was 35,000 million, so EVs still account for less than 20%. (I just stuck your comment into Google.)

They probably meant obsolete when buying new

Indeed. Though because of the resistances and fears to change, some people still buy hybrid PHEV cars. This year is also a bit special because of big supply chain issues and extremely high energy prices. Mostly because of the war.

Some categories for some usages will stay on diesel for some time. If you need a pickup truck for work in the artic, you don't have any good electric option. But if you need to drive to school, to work, to the supermarket, and to the cabin once in a while, you would look a bit like an outlier if you buy a new (expensive) fossil car.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#298

Post by _ph_ »

anthomtb wrote: post #136
5e92cb50239222b wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those can be warmed up with a g̶a̶s̶o̶l̶i̶n̶e blowtorch. Or you can fit your car with an alarm system that auto starts the engine throughout the night to keep it warm. That's what pretty much everyone is doing where I'm from (-25°C is a pretty typical winter temperature here, with drops down to -40-45°C for a couple weeks each winter). After that you get tolerable gas mileage. I don't drive much, but from my friends'…

I thought electric block heaters were common in cold climates. Is the blow torch a last resort if you cannot park your car in range of an outlet?

Well, if that garage has electricity, the electric car could charge and pre-heat there easily. Which would largely eliminate range-loss.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#299

Post by _ph_ »

twobitshifter wrote: post #88

I can’t decide on my next car - Live in cold village on US east coast - ICE might be going obsolete - BEVs are improving quickly so what I buy might be superseded soon - feels almost like the early days of smartphones. - Gas prices are very high - Used and new car prices are unreasonably high - There’s not enough chargers to support the number of EVs being driven in my area leading to long waits. - I could charge at…

Indeed, if you can, I would avoid buying a new car with a combustion engine. As your car should have some more useful life time, of course it doesn't hurt to keep it running for a while longer. This allows you to watch as the market for electric cars expands. On the other side, when you absolutely need a new car and you find an electric car which fits to your requirements, it will continue to do so, even if the technology is further developed. This is, after all, the problem of buying any high-tech product, be it a new laptop or a new smartphone. Next years product always will be better, but when you need a new device and the offerings are suited to the purpose, then just buy one.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#300

Post by 2000UltraDeluxe »

lazide wrote: post #207
2000UltraDeluxe wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't sound very practical; keeping the batteries of all cars warm 24/7 would require immense amounts of electricity on a country-wide scale. It's not like everyone have heated garages, and outdoor temperatures often reach -30c or below in arctic climates.

1) the batteries are insulated 2) you don’t need to keep them warm 24/7, just above freezing when charging them or and/or when you want more efficiency or maximum power (like a longer trip, or midway through a drive). ICE engines are quite inefficient when ‘cold’ (and diesel may refuse to run at all), this isn’t a new problem. The batteries don’t need to be warm by human standards, and the vehicle will still work eve…

How much energy does it take to heat a battery pack from -30c to 1c?

ICE engines definitely have their own set of cold-related issues, but I can't imagine heating a 150 kg engine block would require the same amounts of energy required to heat 500 kgs of battery twice (charging and before driving).

Mind you, I'm not arguing against EV's or anything; I'm just saying it sounds like there's an engineering problem that needs to be solved before EV's can replace ICE cars in very cold climates, which incidentally, also tend to be where the most range is needed.

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