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Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

recurrentauto.com

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Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#261

Post by prottog »

jonux wrote: post #181
zackkitzmiller wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nearly every modern gas vehicle has remote start, and has for years. This isn't an EV feature.

Wow. That would be "nearly every modern gas vehicle in north America". Seriously. Running a cold petrol engine under low load in freezing conditions only for heating i just simply a bad idea. Never understood how this is even remotely OK in the US. This is illegal in most of Europe. And for good reason. If it is around Celcius -40 then you would never turn off the vehicle. And a bit over that - there is always the Ru…

> the oil tray (bad english, but you get it... under the engine)

It's almost perfect English -- it's called an oil pan ;-)

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#262

Post by Reason077 »

zackkitzmiller wrote: post #137
Reason077 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of people drive EVs in the arctic far north of Norway (Troms & Finnmark). Not quite as cold as Canada, maybe, but close. Of course EVs will have less range in cold conditions, but they also have some advantages in the cold: pre-heating from an app so the car is warm when you set out, for example. They may be more reliable than petrol and diesel vehicles in extreme cold conditions, and no need for engine block…

Nearly every modern gas vehicle has remote start, and has for years. This isn't an EV feature.

> "Nearly every modern gas vehicle has remote start, and has for years."

And every year in the US, at least 430 people die from accidental carbon monoxide poisoning.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#263

Post by prottog »

Reason077 wrote: post #95
barbariangrunge wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I’m sitting here reading this, it is -35 C after windchill. The reason we didn’t get an ev is because we are getting the sense that the companies that make them do not take Canadaian weather into account It looks like some of those manufacturers only lose 3% of their range in weather like this, but that’s estimated. The verified numbers are far lower?

Plenty of people drive EVs in the arctic far north of Norway (Troms & Finnmark). Not quite as cold as Canada, maybe, but close. Of course EVs will have less range in cold conditions, but they also have some advantages in the cold: pre-heating from an app so the car is warm when you set out, for example. They may be more reliable than petrol and diesel vehicles in extreme cold conditions, and no need for engine block…

> far north of Norway (Troms & Finnmark). Not quite as cold as Canada, maybe, but close.

Not even close! The Gulf Stream keeps them nice and toasty. Tromsø or Hammerfest, for example, sees wintertime overnight lows similar to e.g. Worcester, Massachusetts (28 degrees of latitude further south). A far cry from places like North Dakota where the daytime highs in December and January are colder than the overnight lows in Tromsø, let alone places in inland Canada.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#264

Post by dkqmduems »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #92
dkqmduems wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Air velocity certainly impacts heat transfer.

Wind chill is a measure of the perception of winter temperatures on human skin. Certainly the car is affected by wind in cold temps. But that's something else that we would measure entirely differently.

'Feeling cold' is measure of heat flux.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#265

Post by Reason077 »

nszceta wrote: post #248
jonux wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. That would be "nearly every modern gas vehicle in north America". Seriously. Running a cold petrol engine under low load in freezing conditions only for heating i just simply a bad idea. Never understood how this is even remotely OK in the US. This is illegal in most of Europe. And for good reason. If it is around Celcius -40 then you would never turn off the vehicle. And a bit over that - there is always the Ru…

> Actually heating the cabin is nothing but wasteful. Americans value comfort and they get it. Europeans want it too but they can't afford it (taxation and energy scarcity)

It's to do with safety, not economics. Remote start on a combustion vehicle presents a carbon monoxide poisoning risk. This is perhaps more significant in Europe where more people park indoors and in confined spaces.

Pretty much any EV in Europe has a remote cabin heating feature. If it were about energy and economics, wouldn't that be banned also?

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#266

Post by Reason077 »

saltcured wrote: post #139
Reason077 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Easily mitigated by good charging practices (eg: charge when you finish a drive and the car/battery is still warm, not after leaving it in the cold overnight)

Wouldn't that also mean it has to be heated before driving, or regenerative braking is also off the table?

Yes, in very cold conditions, regen braking can be reduced/restricted until the battery warms up sufficiently. The car will warn you about this, so hopefully no surprises!

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#267

Post by heresie-dabord »

joshgachnang wrote: post #48
davedx wrote: post #3

Yup my wife just almost got stranded in her Mach-e. Fantastic car but cold weather battery is noticeably worse than our Model 3’s. Something to keep in mind.

Ford's decision to forgo a heat pump is a real head scratcher. Sad the Lightning didn't make the page, because I'm very interested how much it affects it.

Here's an article about the F-150 Lightning being driven in Quebec. You can use Google Translate to obtain a serviceable English version.

https://mobile.guideautoweb.com/articles/68882/ford-f-150-li...

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#268

Post by dahfizz »

grecy wrote: post #260
donatj wrote: post #42

As a Minnesotan with an unheated detached garage, I’d be very interested to know about -40°F performance. We get a couple of those days every year. I have been looking at my next car potentially being an EV and am really curious about the extremes.

> We get a couple of those days every year I'm always curious about things like this. Did you insulate your house for the -40 days? Did you buy your winter coat and gloves based on -40 days? Did you install a block heater, battery blanket and oil pan heater in your ICE car for those -40 days? I'm betting you didn't, because you know they only happen a couple of times a year, and it's not worth spending all the money…

> The same is true for your EV.

I don't think that's exactly true. -30F and below is cold enough to permanently damage the battery in an EV. Letting the electrolyte freeze just once will ruin your battery. It doesn't matter how many -40 days you get, you really do have to be prepared for them.

Your ICE car may not start if it's that cold, but it will work like new once it's warmed back up.

The solution is simple - just keep your EV plugged in, and it will heat itself as necessary. If you don't have a place to charge 24/7, probably don't get an EV in these climates.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#269

Post by bmicraft »

saltcured wrote: post #139
Reason077 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Easily mitigated by good charging practices (eg: charge when you finish a drive and the car/battery is still warm, not after leaving it in the cold overnight)

Wouldn't that also mean it has to be heated before driving, or regenerative braking is also off the table?

That's true, regenerative braking is mostly disabled until things have warmed up.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#270

Post by bmicraft »

dahfizz wrote: post #268
grecy wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We get a couple of those days every year I'm always curious about things like this. Did you insulate your house for the -40 days? Did you buy your winter coat and gloves based on -40 days? Did you install a block heater, battery blanket and oil pan heater in your ICE car for those -40 days? I'm betting you didn't, because you know they only happen a couple of times a year, and it's not worth spending all the money…

> The same is true for your EV. I don't think that's exactly true. -30F and below is cold enough to permanently damage the battery in an EV. Letting the electrolyte freeze just once will ruin your battery. It doesn't matter how many -40 days you get, you really do have to be prepared for them. Your ICE car may not start if it's that cold, but it will work like new once it's warmed back up. The solution is simple - ju…

I'm pretty sure Teslas keep their batteries heated to above cell-freezing level even without them being plugged in. The expectation is that you would recharge it before the battery gets to low to continue heating.
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