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Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

recurrentauto.com

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Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#181

Post by jonux »

zackkitzmiller wrote: post #137
Reason077 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of people drive EVs in the arctic far north of Norway (Troms & Finnmark). Not quite as cold as Canada, maybe, but close. Of course EVs will have less range in cold conditions, but they also have some advantages in the cold: pre-heating from an app so the car is warm when you set out, for example. They may be more reliable than petrol and diesel vehicles in extreme cold conditions, and no need for engine block…

Nearly every modern gas vehicle has remote start, and has for years. This isn't an EV feature.

Wow. That would be "nearly every modern gas vehicle in north America".

Seriously. Running a cold petrol engine under low load in freezing conditions only for heating i just simply a bad idea. Never understood how this is even remotely OK in the US. This is illegal in most of Europe. And for good reason.

If it is around Celcius -40 then you would never turn off the vehicle. And a bit over that - there is always the Russian option of having a large candle below the oil tray (bad english, but you get it... under the engine) for pre heating. The more mainstream option is plugged in electric heating of coolant water.

I remember from my days in the Swedish army that there was a pre heating scheme for the drivers where specific spots on trucks APC's and such should be heated by gas light.

Usually it is sufficient to start the engine, clean the windows from ice, and then get going. A short engine running time without load for letting oils and fluids melt is only sane. Actually heating the cabin is nothing but wasteful.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#182

Post by karmelapple »

Sakos wrote: post #38
crazygringo wrote: post #16

I find it strange that the charts only go down to 20°F, when for example at the moment I write this comment, it's -5°F (-21°C) in Bismarck, North Dakota. And sub-zero Fahrenheit temperatures are pretty common in the winter across the Northeast, especially at night. "Normal" driving conditions extend way below just 20°F.

I figure 20F is just sufficient to prove their thesis (effects of cold on EV cars). I don't think it purports to be an all-encompassing study, especially since there are variables like cabin heating which can have significant effects on range in lower temperatures.

Agreed, and that’s as someone who grew up in North Dakota and now lives in the milder northeast US, near the ocean.

’d also be interested in seeing it colder for trips back to ND, sure. But the majority of folks in the US live in places where it isn’t as brutal as a North Dakotan winter, so doing a study at 20 F seems reasonable to me.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#183

Post by pitaj »

drewg123 wrote: post #176

My Tesla Model X 100D looses 25-40% of range in the winter (and by "winter, I mean 20-50F, as I live in Virginia). This is partially due to resistance heating, and the range is better if you're somehow able to live with keeping the heat off and using just the steering wheel and seat heaters. However, one thing I've never gotten used to is just how cold my feet get in the winter in this car. Even with the heat at full…

Not having enough hot air on the feet is a common issue across cars in general, from my experience.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#184

Post by plebianRube »

newZWhoDis wrote: post #118
rconti wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the nav system do a good job of compensating? The "normal" display on the 3 is based on the EPA rating and is always wrong, but when I navigate, I find the trip range thing to be quite accurate -- even factoring in upcoming hills and traffic.

Yes, but you need to use the “energy” app and have nav destination set. The little mi number next to the battery is “miles of ideal range”, so flat 65mph 70 degrees etc. The energy app shows you live estimates based on distance, elevation, wind speed, temperature, humidity, tire pressure, cabin climate load, and even your phone charger.

The energy app is pretty good, it fits pretty well with my double policy but I don't look at it anymore, since it requires diverting my attention moreso than glancing ant the estimate, and additional tapping to bring it up.

As a rule of thumb I halve the EPA estimate in winter and 2/3-3/4 it in summer.

I have had no range issues doing this for the 130000km + I have owned the vehicle.

Edit: If I'm going to tap, I check the Wh/km, as that is what I'm used to. It was better before they removed it from the swipe, but hey, we gotta fill those sprints somehow.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#185

Post by kube-system »

notdonspaulding wrote: post #141
kube-system wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The air velocity as measured relative to a parked car is not relevant to EV range. When the vehicle is moving the relative air velocity is far different than what it is when parked.

Doesn't the range of an EV drop as the heating load of the cabin of an EV increases? And doesn't the heating load of the cabin increase as the air velocity over all of its metal and glass surfaces increases? Isn't the shell of the car essentially a giant heatsink with a 70mph relative wind moving across it?

Yes, yes, and yes.

However the speed of air over the car while driving is unrelated to the airspeed that meteorologists use to calculate the wind chill in your local weather report

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#186

Post by crazygringo »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #75
barbariangrunge wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I’m sitting here reading this, it is -35 C after windchill. The reason we didn’t get an ev is because we are getting the sense that the companies that make them do not take Canadaian weather into account It looks like some of those manufacturers only lose 3% of their range in weather like this, but that’s estimated. The verified numbers are far lower?

Your car doesn't feel wind chill. I drive an EV in Canadian winter all the time. Not at all an issue. Range loss is a thing but it's not like the car stops working. In fact it starts more reliably and heats up more quickly for me. And I start mine remotely while it's still plugged in, so the cabin is warm and ready to go without wasting battery energy. And can do this safely in the garage without concerns of carbon m…

> They're only useful as a relatively subjective measure for people who aren't dressed properly.

That's a bizarre thing to say when to dress properly, you need to know the wind chill.

If it's 25°F out no wind, vs. 25°F out but it's 5°F with wind chill, that's an entire additional layer I need to put on during my morning walk.

Wind chill is a very accurate measure for judging what to wear. How do you think it's not accurate? It's literally an equation that accounts for the fact that wind makes you colder. You can scientifically, objectively measure the faster cooling effect of wind on an object. (Granted there are marginal differences in its effect on a human body depending on one's height and weight, but that still doesn't make it subjective.)

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#187

Post by steelframe »

I noticed that the estimated cold weather range drop in the article for the Jaguar I-PACE is only 3%, for their definition of "cold weather." I think that's about right. I've been driving one for about 3 years now.

Its rapid charge curve isn't winning any accolades, and its range given the battery size doesn't compare well against most other EVs on the market today. I've got winter tires during the cold season, so that ostensibly drags on efficiency, along with all the other reasons the article lists. The I-PACE comes equipped with a heat pump.

What I will say about the I-PACE is that I find it amazingly consistent when it comes to battery consumption. There's a 150-mile trip with 9,000 feet of elevation gain that I regularly do through the Cascade mountain range year round. The speed limit for much of the trip is 70mph, but in keeping with the flow of traffic I often go a little faster than that.

I never have to worry about running out of charge on that trip. During the summer I'll often arrive with about a quarter of the pack remaining. During the winter, if it's below freezing and there's snow/sleet/ice, I can get down to a little over one-eighth state of charge, depending on how aggressive I am on the throttle. I never experience so-called "range anxiety" and am never surprised by a sudden drop in estimated remaining range.

Furthermore in the 3 years I've owned it, I haven't gotten a reduction in maximum range at all. This is my 4th EV, and I know how lithium ion battery packs degrade over time. The fact that I've gotten no range reduction tells me that Jaguar must have chosen to reserve a significant fraction of the pack capacity as buffer, which might help explain why the range given the pack size is less than other EV manufacturers when the car is new. I wonder what the range of your typical 5-year-old I-PACE is when compared to, say, a typical 5-year-old Audi e-tron.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#188

Post by kkfx »

A small note about "keep the EV plugged", I do not know, since it's LARGELY NOT DOCUMENTED, as usual, but my MG ZS EV actually "keep the battery warm", consuming around 900W. Oh, sure it's not that much, but for 24H that means 21.6kWh, witch might be around 5+€/day in various EU countries. Sure it's really not much, but it's a thing to consider.

The other note is for ALL fellows IT guys, no matter their role, in automotive (and any other sector): please DO TELL the value of full disclosure. Do teach anyone that documenting things is useful and even in the process of doing it design errors came up before transmuting in horrors.

Actual mean software in cars is crapware, documenting it do dot make it less crappy ALONE, but still help because people might read and compare and marking might start being warred about the disclosure of crappy designs...

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#189

Post by afterburner »

twobitshifter wrote: post #88

I can’t decide on my next car - Live in cold village on US east coast - ICE might be going obsolete - BEVs are improving quickly so what I buy might be superseded soon - feels almost like the early days of smartphones. - Gas prices are very high - Used and new car prices are unreasonably high - There’s not enough chargers to support the number of EVs being driven in my area leading to long waits. - I could charge at…

You could easily keep your car (it's not super old), and wait out the low-supply EV car market while you're at it.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#190

Post by mkhpalm »

castratikron wrote: post #61
donatj wrote: post #42

As a Minnesotan with an unheated detached garage, I’d be very interested to know about -40°F performance. We get a couple of those days every year. I have been looking at my next car potentially being an EV and am really curious about the extremes.

A lot of ICE cars won't even start at 40 below. Those cases should count as zero mile range

To be fair, it typically costs about $50 for a block heater which allows you to start below 40 degrees in an ICE.

Whats the solution for EV?

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