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Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

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Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#151

Post by wpietri »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #75
barbariangrunge wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I’m sitting here reading this, it is -35 C after windchill. The reason we didn’t get an ev is because we are getting the sense that the companies that make them do not take Canadaian weather into account It looks like some of those manufacturers only lose 3% of their range in weather like this, but that’s estimated. The verified numbers are far lower?

Your car doesn't feel wind chill. I drive an EV in Canadian winter all the time. Not at all an issue. Range loss is a thing but it's not like the car stops working. In fact it starts more reliably and heats up more quickly for me. And I start mine remotely while it's still plugged in, so the cabin is warm and ready to go without wasting battery energy. And can do this safely in the garage without concerns of carbon m…

> They're only useful as a relatively subjective measure for people who aren't dressed properly.

Depends on your interpretation of "properly". Since 2001, the wind chill numbers for US, CA, and UK are based on a "bare face": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_chill#North_American_and_...

Wanting to know how cold it's going to feel on one's face seems like a pretty reasonable need. At the very least, to know when to break out the balaclava.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#152

Post by chmod775 »

mdorazio wrote: post #125
crazygringo wrote: post #16

I find it strange that the charts only go down to 20°F, when for example at the moment I write this comment, it's -5°F (-21°C) in Bismarck, North Dakota. And sub-zero Fahrenheit temperatures are pretty common in the winter across the Northeast, especially at night. "Normal" driving conditions extend way below just 20°F.

The majority of Americans do not live in areas that get below 20F average for extended periods of time. Your particular use case is atypical, especially for EV buyers, so it isn't shown.

> Your particular use case is atypical

Norwegians alone account for ~5-10% of Tesla's global sales in recent years.

I don't think it's far fetched to assume that at least one tenth of all Tesla vehicles (and other EV vehicles in that price class) are driven in areas that do routinely experience longer periods below that temperature. It's likely much more than that, because in Europe you can easily find these temperatures many places far south of Norway.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#153

Post by LeoPanthera »

zackkitzmiller wrote: post #137
Reason077 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of people drive EVs in the arctic far north of Norway (Troms & Finnmark). Not quite as cold as Canada, maybe, but close. Of course EVs will have less range in cold conditions, but they also have some advantages in the cold: pre-heating from an app so the car is warm when you set out, for example. They may be more reliable than petrol and diesel vehicles in extreme cold conditions, and no need for engine block…

Nearly every modern gas vehicle has remote start, and has for years. This isn't an EV feature.

A big difference is that while an EV is sitting plugged in, it can heat itself from wall power, rather than burning gas to do it.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#154

Post by cmrdporcupine »

frosted-flakes wrote: post #134
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't lose "range" on an ICE vehicle but you definitely lose mileage efficiency. But ICE vehicles also just throw off insane amounts of wasted energy in the form of heat all year long and in the winter some of it gets converted into comfort. People are just accustomed to throwing that money away, I guess.

Not all of them do. My diesel VW struggles to maintain coolant temperature in really cold weather, and even in summer the radiator fans almost never turn on unless the AC is used. When it's -25C out it takes 10-15 minutes before I get full heat out of the vents (hooray for heated seats), and if I pull up to a stop light with the heater on the coolant temperature immediately starts to drop. And there's nothing wrong w…

yeah I recall my old VW Jetta TDI taking longer than I thought it should to heat up in the winter. Which I always found strange considering the amount of BTUs in diesel and how well my (at the time) diesel oil furnace was at heating up my house right away and also how small the cabin was.

In any case, my Chevy Volt heats up the cabin pretty fast. Though once it gets below -10C the stupid thing kicks on the ICE even though it doesn't need to. Something to do with regulations around ICE drivetrain components and temperatures. It just uses it to heat up coolant lines for the ICE itself, even when I have no desire to use the ICE.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#155

Post by 5e92cb50239222b »

anthomtb wrote: post #136
5e92cb50239222b wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those can be warmed up with a g̶a̶s̶o̶l̶i̶n̶e blowtorch. Or you can fit your car with an alarm system that auto starts the engine throughout the night to keep it warm. That's what pretty much everyone is doing where I'm from (-25°C is a pretty typical winter temperature here, with drops down to -40-45°C for a couple weeks each winter). After that you get tolerable gas mileage. I don't drive much, but from my friends'…

I thought electric block heaters were common in cold climates. Is the blow torch a last resort if you cannot park your car in range of an outlet?

Maybe in Norway or Canada or other 'rich' countries.

Most people have no place to park their cars, they just leave them wherever in the open (since most live in apartments and there are few garages available).

Those who have enough money to afford an alarm system and pay the increased gasoline bill (because it adds about an hour of idling your engine each day) rarely revert to such measures, but many do. I see them every morning when temperature drops below -30°C or so.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#156

Post by kube-system »

pifm_guy wrote: post #67

At some point, it will be worth fitting a car out with double glazed windows to reduce heat loss/gain through the windows. That should give reduce the energy used for cabin heating, reducing range loss, perhaps by half for longer journeys.

Some cars already have this, for sound isolation… including the model 3 and model S. I’ve had some cars in the past with this feature as well. It is relatively common.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#157

Post by twobitshifter »

frosted-flakes wrote: post #114
twobitshifter wrote: post #88

I can’t decide on my next car - Live in cold village on US east coast - ICE might be going obsolete - BEVs are improving quickly so what I buy might be superseded soon - feels almost like the early days of smartphones. - Gas prices are very high - Used and new car prices are unreasonably high - There’s not enough chargers to support the number of EVs being driven in my area leading to long waits. - I could charge at…

Your current car is only a few years old and has relatively low mileage, so the best course of action is obviously to keep driving it. Unless there's something seriously wrong with it. Otherwise, buy a used car.

It’s a Volkswagen not a Toyota and many parts have design lifetimes of 150-200k. Since it’s the only car for my wife and I, I don’t want to end up in a situation where it’s in the shop all the time. I do plan on hanging on to it after getting another car.

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#159

Post by [deleted] »

PaulBGD_ wrote: post #103
thinking4real wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone’s repeating they find this strange. Is it really strange? I’ve been excited for EVs all my life. But there’s a certain level of propaganda that’s come with them. Explicitly talking about their downsides seems to be taboo. Like you’ll get downvoated or banned on many social media platforms for doing it.

I think it’s because most people who are pro electric understand their downsides, and usually the downsides are presented as dismissal (eg why buy an electric, you have to stop when you’re traveling cross country.) It’s kind of a boring topic unless there’s something new to discuss.

[deleted]

Re: Winter & Cold Weather EV Range Loss in 7,000 Cars

#160

Post by ghaff »

nkurz wrote: post #126
leereeves wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't the cold have the greatest impact when the car isn't moving, because the car warms itself while driving? And the reported wind chill matters when the car isn't moving.

> And the reported wind chill matters when the car isn't moving. It matters in the sense that a parked car in the wind will cool to ambient temperature faster than it would when the air is still, but not in the sense that it will ever get colder than the actual still-air temperature. Wind chill affects rate of cooling, but (in the absence of evaporation) not the actual low temperature that is reached. Since the conce…

Wind chill is mostly a number for TV weathermen to use to hype up cold weather. It does matter to some extent for people in that they may want to be careful to cover exposed skin and wear something windproof. But it's more about dressing for cold windy conditions than about an absolute number.
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