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The human cost of neurotechnology failure

nature.com

31–40 of 160 posts

Re: The human cost of neurotechnology failure

#31

Pain is information. Instead of trying to manipulate the brain into not feeling it, we need to be figuring out the cause and fixing that. These ooh, shiny med tech solutions are likely on such shakey ground in part because the mindset that says "Hey, what can we build and sell to make the pain go away?" (instead of wondering what causes the pain and fixing that) is exactly the kind of thought process that turns a bli…

You are correct in that pain is a kind of information. I am going to be quite cross with you: you lack both medical experience and, well, imagination to understand why that information might be blocked by its recipient, why not all information is valuable. You have traded empathy for the quasi-magic Star Trek fix, so far in the future. You have forgotten the short-term in your look ahead to the long-term. Pain can be brief, pain can be long, pain can come in waves. I have a lot of experience with it.

Right now, for me, here is the valuable information: You are dying slowly of a very rare, incurable metabolic disorder.

Sometimes I wake up in the middle of the night because you are dying slowly of a very rare, incurable metabolic disorder. I might struggle to keep a grimace from my face at Thanksgiving dinner at a sudden stab, or in a meeting because you are dying slowly of a very rare, incurable metabolic disorder. A rare moment of levity is spoiled because you are dying slowly of a very rare, incurable metabolic disorder. At times the message becomes constant and disruptive not merely to a good mood, but competent thought, or even much thought at all. It can be so loud and wearying that, lacking medication, I will tumble to the ground and injure myself; even as I cradle my knee, I am also told you are dying slowly of a very rare, incurable metabolic disorder.

Now, I no longer have sessions where I am shrieking into a pillow and the ER visits are few and far between because I have been managing this for a long, long time. I avoid triggers and maintain a frankly bizarre "diet" which is hurting me in other ways because I am tiptoeing around a very rare, incurable metabolic disorder that is demanding and fussy as an infant with colic, if there was also some kind of sound-activated device which hurt you every time the baby cried. Even the most rigid avoidance of triggers and the greatest compliance will still not bring it to heel. Originally, the information was new and fresh, and caused me to do a lot of research and homework, but there's nothing more informative about you are dying slowly of a very rare, incurable metabolic disorder as it stands today.

The science to deal with this was science fiction when I got it, and is decades away now. But still ... you are dying slowly of a very rare, incurable metabolic disorder.

I have been receiving this message for more than thirty years. Tonight, the message you are dying slowly of a very rare, incurable metabolic disorder is repeated and loud and I will have to sort through nasty Schedule II drugs, estimating what I can get away with until my next refill (and they seem to happen more frequently) to see if I can't turn down the volume on this information. Soon I will "graduate" to something like dilaudid, which is more potent, needed because you are dying slowly of a very rare, incurable metabolic disorder is just a little louder, a little more urgent, every month. I can still see the unhappy microexpressions crossing my physician's face when I suggested he begin to look into a celiac plexus block, which essentially "burns out" some nerves temporarily, at some great costs, for when I need it in a few years, after the much-lamented fentanyl patches will not be enough to cover you are dying slowly of a very rare, incurable metabolic disorder. It's a risky and unattractive procedure, with a ton of side effects, but it does keep down the screaming.

Not all information is that great.

I am dying slowly of a very rare, incurable metabolic disorder.

Re: The human cost of neurotechnology failure

#32
post #5

I really like the proposal from John Scalzi's 'Lock In' series where companies that produce neural implants have to establish a trust or insurance contract with enough assets to pay for the maintenance of any implants for the lifetime of the recipients, regardless of what happens to the company. Governments could provide generous subsidies, tax breaks etc. to such funds to reduce the barrier for entry for companies.…

The answer is - there will be no FDA approved neural implants from start-ups. The government would never approve it. If you want to use it before approval, well, that's on you then.

Re: The human cost of neurotechnology failure

#33
post #32
post #5

I really like the proposal from John Scalzi's 'Lock In' series where companies that produce neural implants have to establish a trust or insurance contract with enough assets to pay for the maintenance of any implants for the lifetime of the recipients, regardless of what happens to the company. Governments could provide generous subsidies, tax breaks etc. to such funds to reduce the barrier for entry for companies.…

The answer is - there will be no FDA approved neural implants from start-ups. The government would never approve it. If you want to use it before approval, well, that's on you then.

There already is, one example is the VNS implant.

Re: The human cost of neurotechnology failure

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need to be very careful with brain implants designed to relieve pain, lest we repeat the mistakes which brought us the opioid crisis. I've seen videos at BCI conferences of deep brain stimulation implants which provide the patient with a "happy button" to relieve chronic pain/anxiety/depression/etc. They seem to work very well in a clinical setting, but the patient reactions make it clear that there will be an eno…

The “opioid crisis” is a crisis because (1) it is easy to accidentally kill yourself with opioids; (2) drug criminalisation makes recreational drug use a lot less safe than it could be were it legal and regulated I doubt overuse of a “happy button” brain implant is going to kill you; and I doubt it is going to end up in a similar legal situation to recreational drugs. So, whatever the negative impacts of overuse of s…

What are you talking about? Opioids are already literally legal and regulated.

Re: The human cost of neurotechnology failure

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “opioid crisis” is a crisis because (1) it is easy to accidentally kill yourself with opioids; (2) drug criminalisation makes recreational drug use a lot less safe than it could be were it legal and regulated I doubt overuse of a “happy button” brain implant is going to kill you; and I doubt it is going to end up in a similar legal situation to recreational drugs. So, whatever the negative impacts of overuse of s…

What are you talking about? Opioids are already literally legal and regulated.

They are not "legal and regulated" for recreational use.

Furthermore, some argue that even medical use is over-regulated, to the point that people with genuine needs for them are being denied them by doctors who have become overly hesitant to prescribe them out of fear of the regulators. (Of course, if these claims of excessive prescriber hesitancy are true, that hesitancy itself is not a cause of the "opioid crisis", maybe rather a consequence of it; instead, that hesitancy would be a contributor to the "pain crisis" which has been with us since the dawn of time.)

One thing I personally find shocking - in a number of Australian states (and I believe the same is true in some US states), terminally ill people in severe pain can legally request assisted suicide – and yet, they can't legally have diamorphine (heroin) as a pain treatment, despite evidence that in some cases it is actually a superior pain treatment to any other opioid available.

Claims made by government agencies in some countries (such as the US or Australia) that diamorphine has "no legitimate use in medical treatment" are simply falsehoods. In some cases, it is the best clinical option. Those cases may be relatively rare, but they aren't non-existent, and to continue with an absolute ban on its clinical use (despite the fact that other jurisdictions, such as the UK, use it clinically with no major issues) is totally unjustifiable

Re: The human cost of neurotechnology failure

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Related: https://spectrum.ieee.org/bionic-eye-obsolete > Their Bionic Eyes Are Now Obsolete And Unsupported It's for this reason that I believe all medical implant firmware and required associated software should be FOSS. Nobody should ever lose the use of something embedded in their body because a company goes out of business.

Yes, the code of these devices should be 100% FOSS. Also the argument about defending intellectual property doesn't make sense: the software will probably do trivial things and be very simple, that is what you are selling is the hardware itself, and that is already covered by patents. So making the code public will allow people to find a replacement in the eventuality that the manufacturer stops supporting the produc…

> the software will probably do trivial things and be very simple, that is what you are selling is the hardware itself, and that is already covered by patents.

How do you figure? In the case of something like an insulin pump or a pacemaker, sure, but once we start interfacing with nerves, especially once we start trying to communicate with them properly instead of just blunt-force stimulating a bunch of them, these devices are essentially software.

That's not to say I necessarily disagree with your conclusion. For devices that depend on patented hardware, opening up the software still works because the hardware effectively acts as a copy protection dongle.

For other devices, or for cases where the software contains critical 'secret sauce', what we need might be something more like the automotive right-to-repair legislation. Even if the device is closed source, the manufacturer must provide appropriate documentation and tooling to allow third parties maintain the device for its intended service life (which, of course, is hopefully a bit longer for a brain implant than for a hatchback!)

Re: The human cost of neurotechnology failure

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “opioid crisis” is a crisis because (1) it is easy to accidentally kill yourself with opioids; (2) drug criminalisation makes recreational drug use a lot less safe than it could be were it legal and regulated I doubt overuse of a “happy button” brain implant is going to kill you; and I doubt it is going to end up in a similar legal situation to recreational drugs. So, whatever the negative impacts of overuse of s…

Also, with a brain implant, it would be possible to rate limit the “happy button” similar to time-locked IV buttons or medicine bottles.

Why?

Re: The human cost of neurotechnology failure

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Related: https://spectrum.ieee.org/bionic-eye-obsolete > Their Bionic Eyes Are Now Obsolete And Unsupported It's for this reason that I believe all medical implant firmware and required associated software should be FOSS. Nobody should ever lose the use of something embedded in their body because a company goes out of business.

I can't see a requirement to be FOSS working due to those who fund such companies expect to have dividends, even universities. But at least if it's published, and with stronger right to repair laws, there is some chance rather than none.

Perhaps mandate a trigger? In the event of bankruptcy, implanted medical device firmware and hardware designs enter the public domain.

Patients’ interests should take precedence over creditors and investors.

Re: The human cost of neurotechnology failure

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are arguing for cruelty with a false dilemma. The symptoms are the problem. The suffering and loss of function are the problem. Sure, total causal knowledge and a perfect treatment would be nice. But until we have that, ignoring partial solutions in the name of medical research purity would be deeply irresponsible.

Sure, total causal knowledge and a perfect treatment would be nice. We won't get it if we never bother to look for it. I'm not arguing for cruelty. These articles make the front page of HN precisely because our current approach is so broken that people find the results horrifying.

Why do you think no one is bothering to look for it? I can go on Google Scholar right now and find thousands of articles exploring the causes of cluster headaches or anything else mentioned in the article.
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