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Valve is paying open-source developers to work on Proton, Mesa, and more

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Re: Valve is paying open-source developers to work on Proton, Mesa, and more

#211

Post by bombolo »

craftkiller wrote: post #209
bombolo wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the called functions need to be loaded in memory for every process using them, instead of once. Also there is value in being able to fix a library without having to recompile everything.

Everything is getting recompiled all the time anyway. At least with FreeBSD, any time a dependency is updated, all the packages that depend on that package get rebuilt. There's no concept of "this was a small update and its dynamically linked", its just "the version string changed, so rebuild everything that lists it as a dependency". This is particularly "fun" for web browsers because they have a lot of dependencies…

> Everything is getting recompiled all the time anyway.

Source? I know when stuff on my distribution gets recompiled because then I have to download and unpack it, so I notice.

I can assure you that it isn't as you say.

> with FreeBSD

Despite the monorepo thing, I assure you that most FreeBSD users do use software coming from other places as well.

Re: Valve is paying open-source developers to work on Proton, Mesa, and more

#212

Post by rowanG077 »

candiddevmike wrote: post #34
haunter wrote: post #10

Linus at DebConf 2014 https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=310&v=Pzl1B7nB9Kc&feature=yo... >I’m on a record saying, that maybe Valve will actually save the Linux desktop. And it’s actually not because I think games are important! I don't care, I don't play games. I think some people do, so games maybe important. But the really important issue is I guarantee you Valve will not make 15 different binaries. And I also guarant…

Id rather have static binaries than a flatpak/snap for "universal distribution", personally.

I agree static binaries or at the very least something akin to nix where every binary has a pinned dynamic lib.

Re: Valve is paying open-source developers to work on Proton, Mesa, and more

#213

Post by bombolo »

modzu wrote: post #210
bombolo wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well you can statically link stuff in a flatpak… a distribution package however gets automatically rebuilt when a dependency changes, if it's statically linked.

sorry, is this an argument that appimage has advantages over flatpak for security and updates? could u elaborate?

No I'm saying that flatpack can be as bad as appimage because nobody checks.

Re: Valve is paying open-source developers to work on Proton, Mesa, and more

#214

Post by CamperBob2 »

bombolo wrote: post #211
craftkiller wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything is getting recompiled all the time anyway. At least with FreeBSD, any time a dependency is updated, all the packages that depend on that package get rebuilt. There's no concept of "this was a small update and its dynamically linked", its just "the version string changed, so rebuild everything that lists it as a dependency". This is particularly "fun" for web browsers because they have a lot of dependencies…

> Everything is getting recompiled all the time anyway. Source? I know when stuff on my distribution gets recompiled because then I have to download and unpack it, so I notice. I can assure you that it isn't as you say. > with FreeBSD Despite the monorepo thing, I assure you that most FreeBSD users do use software coming from other places as well.

If nothing else, you probably see several megabytes' worth of JIT compilation whenever you visit a JavaScript-heavy web page. Same effect... namely, none at all.

Re: Valve is paying open-source developers to work on Proton, Mesa, and more

#215

Post by CamperBob2 »

bombolo wrote: post #204
CamperBob2 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that, but executable images are demand-paged anyway. You can link 1 GB of static library code if you like; you won't pay the penalty unless and until those functions are actually called. The whole debate is just stupid. If it inconveniences even one fewer user , then static linking is the way to go, because of the sheer number of drawbacks that shared libraries bring. Nobody cares how big the executable is.…

But the called functions need to be loaded in memory for every process using them, instead of once. Also there is value in being able to fix a library without having to recompile everything.

Also there is value in being able to fix a library without having to recompile everything.

Number of times I have benefited from this process: 0 (AFAIK)

Number of times this process has hosed previously-working applications and components: too many to count

On Windows, this "feature" was called "DLL Hell," and was generally considered a bad thing. Nothing has fundamentally changed since it was a common practice for every installer to have its way with c:\windows, IMHO. (Admittedly shared MSVC runtimes aren't as big a problem as the Winsock-provider-du-jour was, but still... there is simply no point.)

Re: Valve is paying open-source developers to work on Proton, Mesa, and more

#216

Post by rowanG077 »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #161
arrakeen wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

didn't valve mostly mitigate the fat binary problem with their soldier runtime set of shared libs?

Yes, and then they realized that even that wasn't good enough because Linux Desktop ABIs are a shitshow, so they refocused on providing Windows ABIs instead to great success.

huh? When I run a Linux native game via steam it uses Windows dependencies? What is this dark magic.

Re: Valve is paying open-source developers to work on Proton, Mesa, and more

#217

Post by trobertson »

demux wrote: post #208
freedomben wrote: post #100

If anyone from Valve is reading this, I'm not a gamer at all, but I bought a (fully loaded) SteamDeck largely to support your efforts, and secondly to have a cool portable computer. It is (in about a week) going to become a game console hooked up to my TV. I could have got an xbox for much less the price, but the openness, power, and linuxyness of the steamdeck was too attractive to pass up :-D Please keep it up! you…

Has anyone successfully run SteamDeck's version of arch on a pc for gaming+dev? I'm looking to do this but I'd love to hear anecdotes

HoloISO is what you're looking for: https://old.reddit.com/r/holoiso/

Re: Valve is paying open-source developers to work on Proton, Mesa, and more

#218

Post by gps0 »

danielheath wrote: post #157
mrkramer wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a casual user who uses computer for work and gaming I would go with Windows. People say Linux is free and open source, more secure and you get privacy but is it really worth it? Idk.

To me, Linux means having the option of a system that lacks distractions. That’s a drastic ux improvement for me personally; IMO windows UX peaked with 2000, and XP was nearly as good. I haven’t played much multiplayer anything (a little MTGa, among us, tabletop simulator and beat saber) but none of the single player games I’ve tried on Ubuntu have had any issues; just open steam and press play. Windows started pushi…

What are some DEs / window managers you think are quite simple and let you focus?

Re: Valve is paying open-source developers to work on Proton, Mesa, and more

#219

Post by npteljes »

ROTMetro wrote: post #117
npteljes wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially with entertainment, I haven't understood the anti-Putin sentiment. Is it really in the West's interest to stop exporting soft power there? Sanctions make sense to me, but this particular industry we should make an exception for, I'd say. Authoritarian regimes try to isolate their populace anyways, it'd be a shame to co-opt that.

Yes, let's ensure we continue to give young Russian males an outlet to escape from thinking about the current realities in their country. Steam is providing the modern circus in 'bread and circuses'. If anything, this is the exact soft power we should leverage to highlight to those your angst filled males that their current reality is isolating them. Or, we could just give an opium of the masses to keep them indiffer…

>Steam is providing the modern circus in 'bread and circuses'

Also, you know what really provides bread and circuses? Populist bullshit such as "Putin banning LGBT propaganda". Nothing better to take the minds off of pressing issues like further harming a marginalized group.

https://news.yahoo.com/vladimir-putin-bans-lgbt-propaganda-1...

Re: Valve is paying open-source developers to work on Proton, Mesa, and more

#220

Post by darkteflon »

pxc wrote: post #101
butz wrote: post #63

Thanks to Valve Linux is single OS on my home computer. Most of the games from my medium sized Steam library are working, and few that does not work today, will probably be fixed in the future. Need to mention that I do not play new AAA titles or multiplayer games, but I enjoy older games, and some of those are broken on modern versions of Windows.

Single player gaming, indie gaming, and retro gaming are all gaming niches where I'd say that a smooth Linux experience with widespread support is 'already there'. It's really only the (crucial) segment of big, trendy multiplayer titles where support is still really hit-and-miss. If gaming is essential to your social network, Linux may not be ready for you to entirely switch over. But if you're someone whose social h…

Yes, the only reason I keep a windows install around at all is for MW2, Tarkov and Hunt: Showdown with the boys.

From memory, Valve has also been supporting anti-cheat providers to port to Linux (or perhaps I have misunderstood and they will also run under Proton?), so there’s always a chance this will be solved in the next couple of years. The Steam Deck has been a great catalyst for that within Valve, it seems.

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