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The strange case of Britain’s demise

economist.com

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Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#81

Post by klelatti »

skippyboxedhero wrote: post #63
klelatti wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a fair challenge but I politely disagree. - Brits are famously monolingual compared to the rest of Europe. - How many senior British politicians speak a European foreign language fluently - Johnson perhaps - I can think of perhaps one or two others. - Lots of key members of the Eurosceptic movement have deep links to the US. Hannan, Farage, Fox (he was the Brexit Trade Minister in 2019 btw so not close to deca…

I have no idea how you measure fluency, but most of the population we are concerned with learned a foreign language until the age of 16. Brits are "famously monolingual" because the country only speaks one language (unlike almost every other European country). I don't know, I haven't tried to talk to any of them in a language that isn't English. Again, your supposition that this must be true is based on what? It must…

Language skills: UK bottom of the pack in Europe.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...

Just because you're not an MP doesn't mean you can't have huge influence - Farage obviously being the most prominent example.

Brexit Trade Minister - my typo should have been Post Brexit Trade Minister - but he was clearly in Govt in 2019 contrary to your claim.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#82

Post by hermitcrab »

>Some at the top still benefit from unearned deference.

Indeed. Quote a bit of Latin in a posh accent at most British people and they seem to completely take leave of their senses. A bit like the tonic immobility you can induce in some animal by turning them over and stroking them. This is why we have had ridiculous figures like Johnson and Rees Mogg in positions of power.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#83

Post by hermitcrab »

Because of our first past the post system, the choice at the next election is effectively just:

Conservative. Mostly talentless crooks who are looting the country as fast as they can. But are able to present a fairly united front, no matter how much they hate each other.

Labour. A party that should probably be 2 parties. A left party and a centre party, who are unable to conceal their hatred for each other. Currently led by Starmer, an apparently decent man, but of questionable vision and political instincts.

It's not a great choice. The Conservatives deserve to lose in a landslide. But a victorious Labour party will probably spend most of it's energy fighting amongst themselves. Time for proportional representation?

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#84

Post by photochemsyn »

hermitcrab wrote: post #57
photochemsyn wrote: post #36

There are several obvious culprits, here's the timeline: 1) Promoting the proxy war in Ukraine and impeding diplomatic negotiations, plus pushing for the expansion of NATO, had the result of pushing gas prices through the roof, driving record inflation (and enriching a few gas suppliers). This is the primary cause for the recent economic slump. The Neoconomist magazine is not going to address this issue, however. 2)…

>Promoting the proxy war in Ukraine Taking a lead in helping the Ukrainians defend themselves seems like about the only laudable thing the UK government has done in a long time.

Pushing for the expansion of NATO and promoting a regime change operation in Ukraine that resulted in a government that attempted to ban the Russian language and which had an undeniable neo-Nazi element affiliated with it was not such a good idea in retrospect, was it?

Imagine if a regime came to power in the USA, and it attempted to ban the Spanish language, eliminated Spanish-language versions of government documents, etc. Maybe many regions of the USA - such as much of the American Southwest - would not want to be ruled by such a government?

Similarly, how do you think the USA would respond to Chinese military bases and nuclear weapons being based in Mexico, or Russian military bases and nuclear weapons being based in Cuba (oh, we've already seen what kind of response that triggered, back in 1962-1963, wasn't it)?

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#85

Post by revertmean »

rthalr wrote: post #77
revertmean wrote: post #55

There was a previous comment about the "native population" that is now marked dead that I wanted to respond to. The commentator really needs to read Defoe's "True Born Englishman". I offer a quote that is a little longer than the usual given: The silent nations undistinguished fall, And Englishman's the common name for all. Fate jumbled them together, God knows how; Whate'er they were, they're true-born English now.…

This poem from 1701 defends a foreign born king: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_True-Born_Englishman It has nothing to do with multiple large ethnic groups that tend to cause tension in the long run, see Israel and Donbas for example.

The entirety of the poem is literally about the influx of multiple large ethnic groups into England! Read it! https://www.poetrynook.com/poem/true-born-englishman

Another quote:

Your Roman-Saxon-Danish-Norman English.

The great invading Norman let us know

What conquerors in after-times might do.

To ev'ry musketeer he brought to town,

He gave the lands which never were his own.

When first the English crown he did obtain,

He did not send his Dutchmen home again.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#86

Post by _a_a_a_ »

dazc wrote: post #80
_a_a_a_ wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks. I'd rebut by saying the two party condition actually isn't - there are several inc. middle-ground lib-dems for example. That they are a small party is - I think - because of the tribalism of the electorate who self-polarise. So that's still a problem with the electorate I'd say. About 'ideal' there's no such thing for everyone. To some Truss was ideal, to others, Corbyn. They're not my ideal. BTW I'd say Trus…

Yes, there are other parties, but, aside from tactical voting, most people accept you're going to get a labour or conservative government no matter what. A recent exception may have have been the Con/Lib coalition but it was a union of unequal partners at the best of times.

Where you see some inevitability "...you're going to get a labour or conservative government no matter what", I see choices not taken. It's if you're implying political free will doesn't exist. It's very hard for me to understand where you're coming from (no offence!).

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#87

Post by hermitcrab »

photochemsyn wrote: post #84
hermitcrab wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Promoting the proxy war in Ukraine Taking a lead in helping the Ukrainians defend themselves seems like about the only laudable thing the UK government has done in a long time.

Pushing for the expansion of NATO and promoting a regime change operation in Ukraine that resulted in a government that attempted to ban the Russian language and which had an undeniable neo-Nazi element affiliated with it was not such a good idea in retrospect, was it? Imagine if a regime came to power in the USA, and it attempted to ban the Spanish language, eliminated Spanish-language versions of government documen…

Ukraine had no realistic prospect of joining NATO any time soon (that may change since the invasion).

Without the expansion of NATO it might have been the baltic states that were on the recieving end of a 'special operation' long before now. And they would have been much less able to defend themselves than Ukraine has been.

Pretty much every country has a 'neo-Nazi element'. Including Britain and the US. It isn't clear to me that Ukraine was any worse in this respect.

>in a government that attempted to ban the Russian language

"Ukraine’s parliament approved a law on Thursday that grants special status to the Ukrainian language and makes it mandatory for public sector workers" https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-parliament-langua...

If that what you are referring to? That doesn't sound like a ban on the Russian language to me.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#88

Post by mmarq »

skippyboxedhero wrote: post #48
Havoc wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Economic reform" is just the latest soundbite. Half hearted acknowledgement that current tory policies have failed so by necessity the next thing being pushed must be branded as a change. Hence "reform". I have yet to see anything of substance fly under that banner.

It isn't (the indicator for this is that Reeves is saying exactly the same thing). It is hard to be brief but: * Financial services - totally fucked, most of the VC funding in the UK comes from overseas investors because pension and insurance rules (that were largely adopted from Europe) mean that they have to own large amounts of govt bonds...the recent problems indicate how wise that was. Everything isn't working:…

> * Housing - separate from just planning, there are specific rules within the housing market that cause distortions above the planning system failing to produce enough supply. For example, rent controls in Scotland...that caused a 40% drop in rental supply in two weeks, this is economic mismanagement on a grand scale.

Umpteenth reminder that England is the only place on planet Earth where people earning a top 10% salary, that is 70K£ pa, are at constant risk of eviction and live in houses and flats with mice and bed bugs and where children die of mould. Incidentally it is also the country with the least regulated private rental market.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#89

Post by DiscoDays »

rthalr wrote: post #77
revertmean wrote: post #55

There was a previous comment about the "native population" that is now marked dead that I wanted to respond to. The commentator really needs to read Defoe's "True Born Englishman". I offer a quote that is a little longer than the usual given: The silent nations undistinguished fall, And Englishman's the common name for all. Fate jumbled them together, God knows how; Whate'er they were, they're true-born English now.…

This poem from 1701 defends a foreign born king: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_True-Born_Englishman It has nothing to do with multiple large ethnic groups that tend to cause tension in the long run, see Israel and Donbas for example.

> It has nothing to do with multiple large ethnic groups that tend to cause tension in the long run, see Israel and Donbas for example.

Please elaborate. As somebody from the East of Ukraine (and, incidentally, as someone who lived in Israel for some years too), I am curious what I am supposed to learn about ethnic tensions from these two examples.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#90

Post by Scarblac »

brangex wrote: post #59
calewis wrote: post #12

It’s also the heavy manipulation of the free and social press by Murdoch, Paul Darce and state actors.

Do you mean Brexit? Otherwise I don't recall the last time that the Murdoch press has had any influence on any policy in either the EU or the United States. The Murdoch press was for Sweden-style COVID-19 policies and deescalation in Ukraine. If it had been listened to, we'd have low gas prices and economic prosperity now. Instead, Biden pumped up the stock market with COVID-19 relief funds handed out to his interest…

Deescalation in Ukraine? How did it propose to achieve that, just yield to an invading country?
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