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The strange case of Britain’s demise

economist.com

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Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#61
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Economic reform" is just the latest soundbite. Half hearted acknowledgement that current tory policies have failed so by necessity the next thing being pushed must be branded as a change. Hence "reform". I have yet to see anything of substance fly under that banner.

It isn't (the indicator for this is that Reeves is saying exactly the same thing). It is hard to be brief but: * Financial services - totally fucked, most of the VC funding in the UK comes from overseas investors because pension and insurance rules (that were largely adopted from Europe) mean that they have to own large amounts of govt bonds...the recent problems indicate how wise that was. Everything isn't working:…

I'm not from the UK, but from a distance (the other side of Europe) it looks like UK's ongoing economic implosion seems to also have been caused by the people over there going all in on "the service industry!" sometime in the late '80s - the '90s, and leaving aside almost anything that involved making physical things, from roads to steel to stuff like that.

Imo that might work for a very small country or for a city-state (like Hong Kong or Singapore, even though these also used to make actual stuff), but I don't think you can base the economy of a country as big and developed as the UK is entirely on services. At most you get a pseudo-city-state, which is what London looks like, surrounded by economic "blob". It's not London that built modern UK, but the likes of Manchester, Birmingham, Glasgow and, yes, Newcastle and the North-East of England. All those cities might as well not exist now, from an economic pov.

Of course, I might be totally wrong on this as I don't live in the UK, but I've got most of that by reading David Edgerton's The Rise and Fall of the British Nation: A Twentieth-Century History [1] recently. (a Economist editorial from a couple of weeks ago was also quoting David Edgerton, if it matters)

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Rise-Fall-British-Nation-Twentieth-Ce...

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> his vote share was around Blair’s average Blair got 35% of the vote after 8 years of power and the Iraq war, against a decent challenger and experienced politician. Corbyn got 32% — as the opposition — against an incumbent who’s approval ratings at the time were underwater and who led an unpopular party who’d been in power far too long already.

Yes, I missed out the bit where that 3% difference in vote lead to a 93 (out of 650) difference in seats.

Corbyn got 202 MPs in 2019, Blair in his 3rd term got 355

Corbyn wasn't just deeply unpopular across the country outside of student areas. I spoke to life long remainer lib dems in the Tory/Lab marginal seat of Crewe and Nantwich who were voting Tory to stop Corbyn. Across rural areas in Cheshire people were voting Tory because they were scared of Lib Dems backing Corbyn.

Due to the way that FPTP works, his concentrated support in student/young urban areas was wasted, with the result being a Tory landslide.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people in the UK have at least some familiarity with European languages. Many civil servants, a point mentioned in the article, studied Classics so are quite familiar with speaking multiple languages (and our diplomatic service doesn't work the same way as the US, so some civil servants come from the diplomatic service knowing 5-10 languages fluently). And in Europe, many people speak English. Proceedings at Bru…

That's a fair challenge but I politely disagree. - Brits are famously monolingual compared to the rest of Europe. - How many senior British politicians speak a European foreign language fluently - Johnson perhaps - I can think of perhaps one or two others. - Lots of key members of the Eurosceptic movement have deep links to the US. Hannan, Farage, Fox (he was the Brexit Trade Minister in 2019 btw so not close to deca…

I have no idea how you measure fluency, but most of the population we are concerned with learned a foreign language until the age of 16. Brits are "famously monolingual" because the country only speaks one language (unlike almost every other European country).

I don't know, I haven't tried to talk to any of them in a language that isn't English. Again, your supposition that this must be true is based on what? It must be...you heard this thing about Brits...

Right and two of the people you mention have never served in British parliament. Hannan has links to the US...and is the same person advocating heavily for a Swiss deal with EU...that couldn't be right though? You said he had "links". He wasn't the Brexit Trade Minister (that is a fictional position).

Truss and Kwarteng didn't look "strongly" to the US...I have no idea where this is coming from. Do you just not like the US so you think this other group of people you don't like must be allied to them? Truss was Trade Minister and did deals with the Commonwealth, there was no real focus on the US at all (because of Biden). Britannia Unchained is famous in the UK for being particularly adulatory towards East Asia, not the US.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#64
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I missed out the bit where that 3% difference in vote lead to a 93 (out of 650) difference in seats.

Corbyn got 202 MPs in 2019, Blair in his 3rd term got 355 Corbyn wasn't just deeply unpopular across the country outside of student areas. I spoke to life long remainer lib dems in the Tory/Lab marginal seat of Crewe and Nantwich who were voting Tory to stop Corbyn. Across rural areas in Cheshire people were voting Tory because they were scared of Lib Dems backing Corbyn. Due to the way that FPTP works, his concentra…

> life long remainer lib dems

This describes me. Luckily I was able to meaningfully vote LibDem, because I really could not see myself voting for BoJo or Corbyn in the last election. Neither Starmer nor Sunak would be my first choice, but in contrast I could hold my nose and vote for either of them if I had to.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#65

I feel like the article lays it out pretty well? It’s a government who’s been in power too long, whose talent base was massively thinned by a Brexit Purity witch hunt and the impossibility of delivering the Brexit fairy-tale, and who weren’t simply ejected at the last election because of Corbyn’s overwhelming unpopularity.

It's a deeper problem than simply being in power for too long. They have been in power that long because the alternative offer was worse as you mention.

The government in power from 2010-2015 was very different than the one today. For starters it was a coalition with the Lib Dems, but even comparing today's rump with Cameron's second ministry shows massive divergence in competence as well as policy.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He didn't move to California to start a hedge fund, he had a Green Card because he went to Stanford, and his wife's family has a house there.

> I can't really think immediately of anyone with strong links to the US in the current govt > he went to Stanford, and his wife's family has a house there

Again, what is connection? So if I go to Bocconi then I am Italian? And if someone in my family has a holiday house in France then I am French?

The craziest part is that I believe this actually makes sense to you. How sad.

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> his vote share was around Blair’s average Blair got 35% of the vote after 8 years of power and the Iraq war, against a decent challenger and experienced politician. Corbyn got 32% — as the opposition — against an incumbent who’s approval ratings at the time were underwater and who led an unpopular party who’d been in power far too long already.

Blair wasn’t being sabotaged by his own party that bought Facebook ads to sabotage him. I’d say Corbyn did superbly. https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/labour-hq-spent-50...

> I’d say Corbyn did superbly

Poe's law never fails

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way we elect a prime minister (i.e. we don't) plays a large part here I think. Parties themselves select the leader. Johnson, Corbyn, Truss, Sunak - all voted in by relatively small numbers of people (e.g. 80k in the case of Truss IIRC), yet they are somehow the leader of the party and potentially even PM. This is where labour shat the bed I think with Corbyn - totally obvious that he would be terrible as a PM ye…

It would have been better for everyone if Corbyn had stayed a back bencher.

We might have even averted Brexit

Re: The strange case of Britain’s demise

#70
post #59
post #12

It’s also the heavy manipulation of the free and social press by Murdoch, Paul Darce and state actors.

Do you mean Brexit? Otherwise I don't recall the last time that the Murdoch press has had any influence on any policy in either the EU or the United States. The Murdoch press was for Sweden-style COVID-19 policies and deescalation in Ukraine. If it had been listened to, we'd have low gas prices and economic prosperity now. Instead, Biden pumped up the stock market with COVID-19 relief funds handed out to his interest…

> I don't recall the last time that the Murdoch press has had any influence on any policy in either the EU or the United States.

Are you discounting Fox News as being part of the Murdoch Press? Because they definitely have an outsized influence on US policy, at least on the GOP side.

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