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Schizophrenia: The new etiological synthesis

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81–90 of 128 posts

Re: Schizophrenia: The new etiological synthesis

#81
post #10

"Living in an urban environment during childhood or as an adult has consistently been found to increase the risk of schizophrenia by a factor of two."[0] While city life is as complex of a confounding factor as anything, the fact that they found hunter-gatherers have practically no incidence of SZR is interesting. Is the modern megalopolis simply too intense of a stimulus for the minds of the sensitive to handle with…

The study directly tackles this question in section 3, including why it is very rare in hunter-gatherer societies.

> We suggest that one reason why the prevalence of psychosis among people with hunter-gatherer and traditional lifestyles is so much lower than in people with contemporary western lifestyles is due to chronic stress and low-grade systemic inflammation caused by western lifestyle.

Why is chronic stress important? It brings impaired immune response and chronic inflammation. This lets a number of parasites through the door, one of which is _Toxoplasma gondii_, the mind-control parasite that causes mice to not fear cats.

> In light of the parasite x genotype x stress model, a probable explanation for why living in cities increases the risk of schizophrenia is increased chronic stress caused by urban living (see Lederbogen et al., 2011). City living is associated with increased amygdala activity and affects the perigenual anterior cingulate cortex, a key region for regulation of amygdala activity, negative affect, and stress (Lederbogen et al., 2011). Functional magnetic resonance imaging research has shown that city living and urban upbringing are associated with altered neural processing of acute social stress (Lederbogen et al., 2011). There is also substantial evidence indicating that visiting green spaces and being exposed to natural environments reduce psychological stress (Ewert and Chang, 2018).

> Living in cities can increase contact with Toxoplasma gondii through domestic cats because cats have a more limited choice of defecation sites in urban areas (Torrey and Yolken, 2014). Likewise, it is possible that the high prevalence of schizophrenia among people with contemporary western lifestyles compared to hunter-gatherers might be caused by the higher prevalence of domestic cats and diseases associated with them. It is also possible that contemporary western lifestyles and living in cities negatively influence gut health and gut microbiota (Fig. 1). Further evidence for this hypothesis comes from findings showing that people with hunter-gatherer lifestyles have more diverse microbiota than people with contemporary western lifestyles (Sanchez-Quinto et al., 2020, Segata, 2015, Singh et al., 2019, Yatsunenko et al., 2012).

Re: Schizophrenia: The new etiological synthesis

#82
post #13

> It is therefore possible that the behavioral changes induced by Toxoplasma in humans, including suicidality, are a part of its adaptations to increase the probability that our ancestors were eaten by lions or leopards What the what

I am skeptical that most suicidal people, who may idealize or even follow through on shooting or hanging themselves, would willingly let themselves be eaten by a lion. Fight or flight adrenaline in the face of big cats feels like a likely effective cure for suicidal ideation…

Actually you might be surprised [1] [2] [3]

[1] https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/africa/lion-kills-man-g...

[2] https://www.telegraphindia.com/west-bengal/calcutta/alipore-...

[3] https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3602819/Naked-man-j...

Re: Schizophrenia: The new etiological synthesis

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Schizophrenia is a degenerative condition where positive symptoms start to be replaced by negative symptoms over the course of years. I've worked in acute adult mental health, and did a few shifts in the long term wards and the difference between people earlier on in the course of their illness versus the end stages are stark.

I would so love to chat with someone with your experience. I developed tourettes / ticking a few years ago when I was around 32 and I wonder whether it could be related to the psychosis I once had. When I researched sudden onset ticking I couldn’t really find much about it! There hasn’t been a day in past 4 years I’ve not ticked and it is worse than ever.

Curious if you've heard about socially-induced Tourette-like behaviours? There was a HN post about it not too long ago, one of the signs was sudden onset later in life: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33878155

Re: Schizophrenia: The new etiological synthesis

#84
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Normally, a protozoan is not very likely to end up in a cat’s gut because rodents instinctively fear cats. In Toxoplasma-infected rodents, however, the fear of cats disappears (Vyas et al., 2007). The mere smell of a cat normally makes rodents flee, but rodents infected with Toxoplasma experience the smell of cat as sexually attractive (Berdoy et al., 2000, House et al., 2011). This makes them seek out cats, making…

Wow, this is amazing, I totally didn't know this. Makes the case for this happening in humans seem more plausible. Like my sibling comment said, thanks for sharing!

[deleted]

Re: Schizophrenia: The new etiological synthesis

#85
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Normally, a protozoan is not very likely to end up in a cat’s gut because rodents instinctively fear cats. In Toxoplasma-infected rodents, however, the fear of cats disappears (Vyas et al., 2007). The mere smell of a cat normally makes rodents flee, but rodents infected with Toxoplasma experience the smell of cat as sexually attractive (Berdoy et al., 2000, House et al., 2011). This makes them seek out cats, making…

I hear theories like "this parasite has evolved to make it's host want to be eaten by lions" and I instinctually think that's crazy, but then I remember all the way more crazy things that nature does, and it starts to sound reasonable. Thanks for sharing!

Don't Google search "parasitic ant fungus" then.

When I first learned how HIV (and retroviruses) worked, it was the same level of amazement. Like "it splices its own genes into your cells' DNA, and when your cells reproduce, they additionally make copies of the HIV virus" is just something that I would have never thought was real.

I think folks like myself, who became an "amateur epidemiologist" during covid (out of necessity, because of the information vacuum) were shocked to learn all these amazing things we weren't ever told. As an aside, the same is true for everyone who is now an "amateur diplomat" post-invasion and read about realism etc. and well-understood and reasonable explanations for "why the U.S. is always at war" that make it seem so logical. Crazy to think there are so many other fields keeping amazing secrets like this.

Nature is fucking terrifying. Every time I see some zoo program on the telly where "oh we're rehabilitating these endangered rabbits and then we'll release 'em back into the wild where they'll be free and happy". Not sure that's how the rabbits feel about it.

If I were a rabbit in one of these programs I'd feign a limp, hide in the corner, anything I could to avoid being cat or wolf fodder, or getting one of the dozens of tortuous diseases and parasites that infect rabbits in the wild.

Re: Schizophrenia: The new etiological synthesis

#86
post #13

> It is therefore possible that the behavioral changes induced by Toxoplasma in humans, including suicidality, are a part of its adaptations to increase the probability that our ancestors were eaten by lions or leopards What the what

Does cat ownership cause toxoplasmosis, or does toxoplasmosis make you want to be around cats?

There aren’t many people that have more than 2-3 dogs. You can’t say the same for cat people.

Re: Schizophrenia: The new etiological synthesis

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am skeptical that most suicidal people, who may idealize or even follow through on shooting or hanging themselves, would willingly let themselves be eaten by a lion. Fight or flight adrenaline in the face of big cats feels like a likely effective cure for suicidal ideation…

Actually you might be surprised [1] [2] [3] [1] https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/africa/lion-kills-man-g... [2] https://www.telegraphindia.com/west-bengal/calcutta/alipore-... [3] https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3602819/Naked-man-j...

>The young man broke into the enclosure, took off his clothes and jumped into the middle, horrifying other visitors who witnessed the attack.

>Once inside, the lions reportedly immediately pounced on him and began to 'play' with him.

>At this point, zookeepers intervened in the attack and shot the two lions in order to save his life.

>The director of the zoo, Alejandra Montalva, said: 'We believe that this person entered as a visitor and paid for his ticket.

>The zoo director said she was 'deeply affected' by the deaths of the two lions, a male and a female.

>One witness said the man was 'shouting things about Jesus'. They continued: 'He was screaming religious things.'

>According to the news channel, the suicide note that was found inside his clothes made allusions to the apocalypse as being a reason for his attempt to take his life.

>He added: 'He suffered several injuries and trauma to the head and the pelvic area. 'We have high hopes that will recover and that will be fine.'

How is this guy the victim here? What about the lions?

[Edit: retracted dumb speculation]

Re: Schizophrenia: The new etiological synthesis

#88
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am skeptical that most suicidal people, who may idealize or even follow through on shooting or hanging themselves, would willingly let themselves be eaten by a lion. Fight or flight adrenaline in the face of big cats feels like a likely effective cure for suicidal ideation…

In the paper, they hypothesize that the route of transmission would have been big cats scavenging human remains after suicide. Of course this, like all evolutionary psychology, is basically unknowable and highly susceptible to just-so story telling

T. gandii and its lifecycle are not in the scope of evolutionary psychology, though. It actually reproduces (sexually) in cat gut and the (cysts of the) host animal actually need to be eaten by a cat (or other host). I agree that EP can lead to dangerous, political, and moralistic ways of thinking.

But the idea that parasites have lifecycles and incentive to survive and reproduce does not deserve such criticism. It's mainstream biology. Toxoplasmosis is a real thing that really affects behavior in wild mice. Read it on Wikipedia.

> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxoplasma_gondii

>Toxoplasma gondii infection in mice lowers general anxiety, increases explorative behaviors and surprisingly increases a general loss of aversion to predators (without selectivity toward cats).

Whether toxoplasmosis causes suicidal ideation in humans is less clear and more speculative, as you argued. I agree. But the mode of parasite transmission, assuming a psychological effect exists in humans, would indeed be Alice being eaten by a cat and then Bob touching cat shit.

Here is a diagram of the known lifecycle: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxoplasma_gondii#/media/Fil...

Re: Schizophrenia: The new etiological synthesis

#89
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does cat ownership cause toxoplasmosis, or does toxoplasmosis make you want to be around cats?

There aren’t many people that have more than 2-3 dogs. You can’t say the same for cat people.

Come to Georgia. Quite a few people have 10-15 dogs. Even in suburban neighborhoods. I've subjectively seen more "pack of dogs" type people than "cat ladies".

In popular culture: https://achristmasstory.fandom.com/wiki/The_Bumpus_Hounds

It's a cultural thing; I'm not arguing there's some kind of "dog toxoplasmosis". Wikipedia says the evidence for (feline) toxoplasmosis causing crazy cat ladies is not definitive, either. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxoplasmosis#Society_and_cu...

Re: Schizophrenia: The new etiological synthesis

#90

While the parasite is found throughout the world, more than 40 million people in the United States may be infected with the Toxoplasma parasite. Once a diagnosis of toxoplasmosis is confirmed, you and your health care provider can discuss whether treatment is necessary. In an otherwise healthy person who is not pregnant, treatment usually is not needed. If symptoms occur, they typically go away within a few weeks to…

I think the main tangible risk is if you have an autoimmune disorder such as HIV.

Seems like the reason for not treating in general is that human guts are already infested with all sorts of relatively harmless bacteria (and protozoa, etc.). And the drugs to treat toxoplasmosis, which are certain antimalarials and antibiotics, carry some risk. A big risk is that, if you nuke your gut biome with 1-3 antibiotics for everything you get infected with, and they develop resistance which spreads horizontally, it could prevent antibiotics from saving your life when you're infected with something serious.

That being said, if there's a link established between t. gandii infection and suicidality, I'd speculate you'll see lots of pressure from the public health folks for treating all infections.

This is not medical advice and I am not a doctor. I have time to sit in an armchair and argue about toxoplasmosis on a Friday night. Please take that into account.

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