Fears of ‘dead pool’ on Colorado River as drought threatens Hoover Dam water • Hacker News Board

Re: Fears of ‘dead pool’ on Colorado River as drought threatens Hoover Dam water

#51

Post by paxys » Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 1:25 AM UTC

ancapsfascists wrote: post #16

Federal lawmakers need to get over the history of water rights here. The system was built on assumptions that just don't hold (more water was apportioned than ever flows). You can give each state an amount and let them figure it out, or take all existing rights and re allocate them federally. But it needs to happen, and urgently. "But people will lose their income!" - Thats a symptom of requiring these people to work…

> I get it, I'm an anarchist

You may need to read up the definition of that word

Re: Fears of ‘dead pool’ on Colorado River as drought threatens Hoover Dam water

#52

Post by 0xB31B1B » Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 1:27 AM UTC

HEmanZ wrote: post #9

imchillyb wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Watch 2-3 episodes of 'How it's Made' and you can see how much water use is industrial. Add the industrial and cattle together and one can quickly see that it's not humans that are consuming the vast majority of potable water, but companies and industry that are depleting what's available for the rest of us.

Just because some people may not grasp this: it is still individual humans consuming the water. Companies and industry don’t burn resources for no reason, they become products that consumers buy. The only real solution is that we consumers consume less, and probably spend more for the same products, period.

This isn't whats happening at all, at least in ag. There is a huge amount of deadweight loss to extremely wealthy long time ag landlords who own water rights. At this time, they have extremely inefficient water uses because water is costless to them. If water prices were to be raised, they would install various methods of water conservation (drip irrigation instead of flooding, etc) and maintain production levels, resulting in similar prices and availability for consumers.

Re: Fears of ‘dead pool’ on Colorado River as drought threatens Hoover Dam water

#53

Post by smcl » Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 1:29 AM UTC

phpisthebest wrote: post #37

ancapsfascists wrote: post #16

Federal lawmakers need to get over the history of water rights here. The system was built on assumptions that just don't hold (more water was apportioned than ever flows). You can give each state an amount and let them figure it out, or take all existing rights and re allocate them federally. But it needs to happen, and urgently. "But people will lose their income!" - Thats a symptom of requiring these people to work…

Quoted post unavailable.

Sounds like poorly informed policies are the problem here - those water use grants that we now know permit more to be taken out of the river than the river produces would need to be revisited. It doesn’t sound like they’re implying more government is needed when fixing the cause of the river and reservoir’s shrinking. Rather, they’ve suggested UBI as a means to help take care of those whose livelihood might be lost by plans to fix the water usage.

> How much history class did you sleep through exactly?

This is a little bit below the belt, isn’t it?

Re: Fears of ‘dead pool’ on Colorado River as drought threatens Hoover Dam water

#54

Post by retrac » Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 1:30 AM UTC

tzs wrote: post #36

I wonder if it is possible to take two or more high water using industries and combine them in a way that would all the combination to work on substantially less water than they were using individually? For example we've all read that it takes a little over a gallon to grow an almond. And it takes about 10 gallons to make one integrated circuit. But that almond does not contain a gallon of water. The almond only cont…

Plants respire, as we do, so much of that water goes into the air. Water + CO2 + light -> sugar + oxygen. Metabolized sugar -> water vapour + heat + CO2. Also, much of that water, now in the form of sugar, is used to grow the plant. Cellulose, in particular, in the cell walls, etc. There are certainly pathways to unlock the water again; burning cellulose releases water vapour, for example. But how much are you going to get for the work involved? 1 tonne of dry hay would release a few hundred litres of water if you burned it, very roughly.

Conceivably, you could grow them in a greenhouse and capture much of the exhaust, but it'd probably be cheaper and easier to desalinate, or just dehumidify air directly. Just growing them in a greenhouse at all -- with humidity and gas exchange under control -- would allow water consumption to be cut enormously.

Re: Fears of ‘dead pool’ on Colorado River as drought threatens Hoover Dam water

#55

Post by Psyladine » Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 1:30 AM UTC

paxys wrote: post #51

ancapsfascists wrote: post #16

Federal lawmakers need to get over the history of water rights here. The system was built on assumptions that just don't hold (more water was apportioned than ever flows). You can give each state an amount and let them figure it out, or take all existing rights and re allocate them federally. But it needs to happen, and urgently. "But people will lose their income!" - Thats a symptom of requiring these people to work…

> I get it, I'm an anarchist You may need to read up the definition of that word

At the end of the day everyone's really a pragmatist. Exceptions tend to shake the world, and not really for the better.

Re: Fears of ‘dead pool’ on Colorado River as drought threatens Hoover Dam water

#56

Post by smcl » Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 1:34 AM UTC

paxys wrote: post #51

ancapsfascists wrote: post #16

Federal lawmakers need to get over the history of water rights here. The system was built on assumptions that just don't hold (more water was apportioned than ever flows). You can give each state an amount and let them figure it out, or take all existing rights and re allocate them federally. But it needs to happen, and urgently. "But people will lose their income!" - Thats a symptom of requiring these people to work…

> I get it, I'm an anarchist You may need to read up the definition of that word

Most people I know who have these beliefs - anarchism, communism - don’t believe a sudden big-bang is how a transition to their l preferred system of government would work, and are pragmatic in moving towards it without upending society in the process.

Hell look at Russia’s “shock therapy” transition to capitalism, we are seeing the very direct consequences of that to this day.

Re: Fears of ‘dead pool’ on Colorado River as drought threatens Hoover Dam water

#57

Post by a9h74j » Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 1:35 AM UTC

eikenberry wrote: post #39

QuantumGood wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI has long-term challenges in that organizations will try everything they can to siphon off the money ("rent seeking") until they succeed. UBI needs to deal with this reality to succeed even in the medium term.

I've also never seen anyone address the high chance that post UBI the #1 issue for every politician will become "I will raise the UBI" and if they don't their opposition will. How will we deal with an ever increasing UBI and where will that every increasing source of money come from?

Dmitri Orlov has remarked: Universal Basic Income leads to Universal Basic Outcome, which is poverty.

Re: Fears of ‘dead pool’ on Colorado River as drought threatens Hoover Dam water

#58

Post by a9h74j » Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 1:38 AM UTC

tzs wrote: post #36

I wonder if it is possible to take two or more high water using industries and combine them in a way that would all the combination to work on substantially less water than they were using individually? For example we've all read that it takes a little over a gallon to grow an almond. And it takes about 10 gallons to make one integrated circuit. But that almond does not contain a gallon of water. The almond only cont…

I associate Lester Brown with the observation: It is too expensive to ship water, but when you ship wheat, you are in effect shipping water.

Re: Fears of ‘dead pool’ on Colorado River as drought threatens Hoover Dam water

#59

Post by ancapsfascists » Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 1:38 AM UTC

phpisthebest wrote: post #37

ancapsfascists wrote: post #16

Federal lawmakers need to get over the history of water rights here. The system was built on assumptions that just don't hold (more water was apportioned than ever flows). You can give each state an amount and let them figure it out, or take all existing rights and re allocate them federally. But it needs to happen, and urgently. "But people will lose their income!" - Thats a symptom of requiring these people to work…

Quoted post unavailable.

My guy, no clue why you doubt it. We aren't getting rid of government in the next two years, but the government we have could address this in that time frame. Fuck you for telling me my beliefs.

Use the toolbox you have while you build the better one, don't just try to build everything from scratch.

Re: Fears of ‘dead pool’ on Colorado River as drought threatens Hoover Dam water

#60

Post by sidewndr46 » Sat, Dec 17, 2022, 1:40 AM UTC

Aren't there passageways left over from the dam's construction that could be dynamited to restore the normal flow of the river? Given that the reservoir no longer serves a purpose it seems like that would be the most sensible approach at this point.