BundesMessenger, a secure messenger for Germany’s public administration • Hacker News Board

Re: BundesMessenger, a secure messenger for Germany’s public administration

#171

Post by legulere » Fri, Dec 16, 2022, 9:14 PM UTC

mhd wrote: post #8

As mentioned in the article, the German health services already adopted Matrix for their "TI-Messenger", which is supposed to make secure communication between health care professionals easier. Or, well, possible at all. Right now this is a morass of "don't mention anything private" emails, letters and faxes. I'm surprised that ticker tape isn't involved somehow. But don't worry, if German health services doing somet…

Usually in the German health sector the use of existing standards is only there for marking off a checklist I have the feeling. In practice things are so heavily adapted that you often cannot use existing libraries.

Just look at the authentication of the E-Rezept (electronic prescription) service: https://github.com/gematik/api-erp/blob/master/docs/authenti... This is supposed to be standard OpenID.

I fully expect the matrix protocol to suffer the same treatment under the hand of the Gematik.

If you want to know how things end up such a chaos take a look at the definitions of the payload data: https://github.com/gematik/api-erp/blob/master/docs/erp_fhir...

6 different sets of definitions by 5 different regulating bodies, with the organizing company Gematik GmbH owned by 9 different stakeholders: https://www.gematik.de/ueber-uns/struktur

Re: BundesMessenger, a secure messenger for Germany’s public administration

#172

Post by alexseman » Fri, Dec 16, 2022, 9:17 PM UTC

Lanz wrote: post #108

foepys wrote: post #38

Germany was quite advanced when it came to technology but then the drive to make more of it somehow stopped. It has always been incredibly sad to me that the German ID card (Personalausweis) has an RFID chip inside with trust zones, certificates, authorization features, and much more and just never had been used. Like at all except for getting cigarettes at vending machines. 12 years after the first RFID Personalausw…

It's almost as if the spirit of the people was broken as Germany drifted more and more leftward.

No post body was provided.

Re: BundesMessenger, a secure messenger for Germany’s public administration

#173

Post by nier » Fri, Dec 16, 2022, 9:20 PM UTC

socialdemocrat wrote: post #50

kapep wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe this changes too in the future? E-Rezept was supposed to launch in 2022 but has been postponed until mid 2023. Some regions already tested it. It didn't work out well, so some regions dropped out of the testing phase. I'm pretty sure it won't work well at launch and we will have to rely on printed prescriptions for quite some time until all pharmacies and doctors use the new system.

It is always puzzling to me with how Germany has many cultural similarities with us Nordics and is an advanced science nation, yet is always so much slower in adopting new technologies. In Norway we have used electronic receipts since 2013. That is like a decade. But I suspect it is a difference in attitude. I think in Scandinavia we are generally far more enthusiastic about new things.

«With the examples of surveillance discussed above, we now know why contemporary Germans so highly value privacy and limits on state surveillance. They are reluctant to go back down that road again.»

Source: https://www.wondriumdaily.com/germanys-surveillance-system-i...

Re: BundesMessenger, a secure messenger for Germany’s public administration

#174

Post by sofixa » Fri, Dec 16, 2022, 9:20 PM UTC

twblalock wrote: post #154

sofixa wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A bit more American-style distrust of government would be a good thing. Nope. The American distrust is resulting in a self-fulfilling prophecy of a failing government. Your bureacracy is years behind basic things we've had in many European countries, and because there's massive distrusts there's no investment making it impossible to improve. E.g. your tax process is a massive joke, but will it ever be fixed? Probab…

You seem to think that Americans want a European-style society and have failed to achieve it. We don't want it. We don't want to "fix" our tax system -- we want low taxes and lots of deductions, and that is why we have them! We want cars. We want suburbs. We don't want the government to be our mommy. This is not a failure, it is an intentional feature of the American system. Also just remember that if we built a comp…

> We don't want it. We don't want to "fix" our tax system -- we want low taxes and lots of deductions, and that is why we have them

You can have that without having to rely on third parties you pay for to get there. How exactly does a middleman help if the point is low taxes?

> We want cars. We want suburbs

Funnily that's in direction contradiction to your previous want. Suburbs and cars are much more expensive, therefore you have to pay more for them, either in taxes to pay for the useless infrastructure, or to pay for it directly.

> Also just remember that if we built a competent bureaucracy that enforced a nationwide ID system, it might be handed over to Donald Trump if he wins the next election, and he really could win

And how exactly would someone like Trump abuse an ID system?

Re: BundesMessenger, a secure messenger for Germany’s public administration

#175

Post by cscurmudgeon » Fri, Dec 16, 2022, 9:20 PM UTC

numpad0 wrote: post #167

woah wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Makes a lot of sense with German culture IMO. There's a culture of doing your job very well, but not much of a culture of thinking outside of the box or shaking things up. Some Herr Doktor probably followed all the best practices to implement "trust zones, certificates, authorization features, and much more" in the ID, doing their job really well. But actually changing the processes to use those features is not anyon…

I think modern political criticisms might be too dismissive of inefficient bureaucratic developments, or we might be taking criticisms too seriously. They might be slow, complicated, budgeted terribly, unbelievably incompetent by standards of typical for-profit mega corporation, but a lot of those projects work at first try and works for decades, in the end. SLS capsule came back in one piece on first try. That Germa…

It is good this project is failing.

Such a thing will never fly in the US. Both the left and right will rightfully or wrongfully oppose it for different reasons.

Edit: E.g. see the left opposing voter ids in the US.

Re: BundesMessenger, a secure messenger for Germany’s public administration

#176

Post by catiopatio » Fri, Dec 16, 2022, 9:22 PM UTC

GTP wrote: post #168

foepys wrote: post #38

Germany was quite advanced when it came to technology but then the drive to make more of it somehow stopped. It has always been incredibly sad to me that the German ID card (Personalausweis) has an RFID chip inside with trust zones, certificates, authorization features, and much more and just never had been used. Like at all except for getting cigarettes at vending machines. 12 years after the first RFID Personalausw…

In The Netherlands, they are implementing a thing which gives the same advantages (i.e. disclose some attributes about yourself without disclosing unneeded data), but uses different technologies. It's called IRMA, you can find an overview here [1]. It can be combined with other applications to do cool stuff, e.g. with PostGuard [2] you can use identity-based encryption to be able to send an encrypted email to someone…

From the website:

> With IRMA it is easy to log in and make yourself known, by disclosing only relevant attributes of yourself. For instance, in order to watch a certain movie online, you prove that you are older than 16, and nothing else.

That’s not “cool stuff”.

Re: BundesMessenger, a secure messenger for Germany’s public administration

#177

Post by Jochim » Fri, Dec 16, 2022, 9:27 PM UTC

victor106 wrote: post #44

kioleanu wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It hasn’t but it’s on the right track. I am working as a developer in one of the federal agencies and have direct contact with the efforts. It helps a lot that public agencies can now offer a so called IT Zulage of a few hundred euros to 1000 per months that brings salaries on par with the private sector. In my team, this worked wonders and we managed to get some really good people. On the other hand, the task is eno…

why can't you hire consultants to do take on some of the work?

If it was in my power, anyone who hires a software consultancy would be immediately sacked.

Re: BundesMessenger, a secure messenger for Germany’s public administration

#178

Post by twblalock » Fri, Dec 16, 2022, 9:28 PM UTC

sofixa wrote: post #174

twblalock wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to think that Americans want a European-style society and have failed to achieve it. We don't want it. We don't want to "fix" our tax system -- we want low taxes and lots of deductions, and that is why we have them! We want cars. We want suburbs. We don't want the government to be our mommy. This is not a failure, it is an intentional feature of the American system. Also just remember that if we built a comp…

> We don't want it. We don't want to "fix" our tax system -- we want low taxes and lots of deductions, and that is why we have them You can have that without having to rely on third parties you pay for to get there. How exactly does a middleman help if the point is low taxes? > We want cars. We want suburbs Funnily that's in direction contradiction to your previous want. Suburbs and cars are much more expensive, ther…

> Funnily that's in direction contradiction to your previous want. Suburbs and cars are much more expensive, therefore you have to pay more for them, either in taxes to pay for the useless infrastructure, or to pay for it directly.

And yet we have the infrastructure. This is not a thought experiment. I am posting this comment from a house in the suburbs with high-quality roads and utility services, which we have managed to build despite our tax system.

So where is the contradiction? Clearly it's possible to live like this, because we do now, and we have done so for a very long time.

Re: BundesMessenger, a secure messenger for Germany’s public administration

#179

Post by catiopatio » Fri, Dec 16, 2022, 9:29 PM UTC

thuringia wrote: post #152

jll29 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You are not required to carry your ID card with you. "I am not a lawyer" but: "Deutsche im Sinne des Art. 116 Abs. 1 GG sind nach § 1 Personalausweisgesetz (PAuswG) verpflichtet, sobald sie 16 Jahre alt sind und der allgemeinen Meldepflicht unterliegen oder sich überwiegend in Deutschland aufhalten, einen gültigen Ausweis zu besitzen und ihn auf Verlangen einer zur Feststellung der Identität berechtigten Behörde vo…

The law never states that you are required to carry your ID. It states that you are required to own one. If you do not carry it with you, and have no why for them to identify you in a way that you can be looked up, e.g. because you have your ID number in your password manager, the police can summon you to the station, or escort you home or a variety of other protocols. The police like to convince you otherwise, becau…

That seems like a distinction without a difference.

If you’re required to have it and present it on demand, then almost everyone will carry it, and the tiny minority not carrying their card will be automatically suspicious.

It’s a very short step from there to simply requiring that it be on your persons.

Re: BundesMessenger, a secure messenger for Germany’s public administration

#180

Post by biztos » Fri, Dec 16, 2022, 9:32 PM UTC

kioleanu wrote: post #99

xcambar wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Please point us to where things happen. Also, how fluent in German must one be?

Yes, see interamt.de for open positions. You have to be fluent, I’m afraid, everything is done in German and you need to understand what’s needed and relay your own thoughts properly. There are many specific terms and processes and abbreviations

I took a quick look at some positions in Munich and the pay did not look very competitive with industry. However, public service has other advantages, and if you prefer to not rent your soul to Capital like so many of us do, I think the salaries looked pretty nice compared to other government jobs. Which is pretty much the deal everywhere, right?

(You can find the rate tables by doing a web search for the code listed next to “Entgelt/Besoldung.”)

I got a kick out of the fact that Street Cleaner came up in my search for “IT and Telecommunication:”

https://interamt.de/koop/app/stelle?1&id=894097