BundesMessenger, a secure messenger for Germany’s public administration • Hacker News Board

Re: BundesMessenger, a secure messenger for Germany’s public administration

#131

Post by heywherelogingo » Fri, Dec 16, 2022, 7:34 PM UTC

Fargren wrote: post #114

catiopatio wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn’t take a religious nut or a conspiracy theorist to see the catastrophically enormous downsides of universally mandated, centrally managed, and cryptographically-backed state identification cards, complete with RFID. Imagine, for example, that upon declaring a protest unlawful, the police could simply scan all the RFID-enabled ID cards in the area and issue everyone a court summons. Not carrying an ID card? N…

This is a strawman, and plainly untrue. Many countries have mandatory id. I have personally lived in Argentina and Spain, both of them have it, for close to a century (89 years in Spain, 54 years in Argentina, but it replaced a pre-exisitng system). The Spanish DNI has RFID. In neither place, nor any country with mandatory ID as far as I know, you get "no access to anything". The worst thing that can happen is that i…

This doesn't sound very forward thinking to me. What might not currently be abused is, however, now in place to be abused in future.

Re: BundesMessenger, a secure messenger for Germany’s public administration

#132

Post by heywherelogingo » Fri, Dec 16, 2022, 7:36 PM UTC

strbean wrote: post #79

catiopatio wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn’t take a religious nut or a conspiracy theorist to see the catastrophically enormous downsides of universally mandated, centrally managed, and cryptographically-backed state identification cards, complete with RFID. Imagine, for example, that upon declaring a protest unlawful, the police could simply scan all the RFID-enabled ID cards in the area and issue everyone a court summons. Not carrying an ID card? N…

There is quite a lot of slipper slope going on here. > centrally managed, and cryptographically-backed state identification cards, complete with RFID. Does not necessitate: > universally mandated > No access to anything > felony to do so intentionally > Your 2FA and disk encryption is mandatorily tied to your ID card All the latter things are awful, but we can have the first thing without any of the latter things.

Yet. It's not slippery slope, it's looking ahead. Is the ice on the lake cracked? No. Therefore there is no chance of it cracking? Setup, then execute, not necessarily immediately.

Re: BundesMessenger, a secure messenger for Germany’s public administration

#133

Post by Fargren » Fri, Dec 16, 2022, 7:39 PM UTC

twblalock wrote: post #128

Fargren wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a strawman, and plainly untrue. Many countries have mandatory id. I have personally lived in Argentina and Spain, both of them have it, for close to a century (89 years in Spain, 54 years in Argentina, but it replaced a pre-exisitng system). The Spanish DNI has RFID. In neither place, nor any country with mandatory ID as far as I know, you get "no access to anything". The worst thing that can happen is that i…

Western Europe is one example where IDs have not been abused. But China is another example where they have been. If you give your governments tools that can be used for oppression, even if they aren’t abused today, it would make it easier for a new authoritarian government to abuse them later on. Spain was a dictatorship for much of the 20th century and Argentina had had multiple military dictatorships too — it could…

Both of the examples I used had mandatory state IDs during their dictatorships. The IDs were not significantly instrumental to the government's power. I don't think the addition of RFID really would change that in the event of a new dictatorship.

But even if mandatory RFID IDs were a critical tool of authoritarian governments, what would prevent the dictator from issuing mandatory IDs after taking power?

Re: BundesMessenger, a secure messenger for Germany’s public administration

#134

Post by twblalock » Fri, Dec 16, 2022, 7:45 PM UTC

Fargren wrote: post #133

twblalock wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Western Europe is one example where IDs have not been abused. But China is another example where they have been. If you give your governments tools that can be used for oppression, even if they aren’t abused today, it would make it easier for a new authoritarian government to abuse them later on. Spain was a dictatorship for much of the 20th century and Argentina had had multiple military dictatorships too — it could…

Both of the examples I used had mandatory state IDs during their dictatorships. The IDs were not significantly instrumental to the government's power. I don't think the addition of RFID really would change that in the event of a new dictatorship. But even if mandatory RFID IDs were a critical tool of authoritarian governments, what would prevent the dictator from issuing mandatory IDs after taking power?

First of all, during the Franco government the internet was an academic curiosity and nobody carried smartphones. That has all changed, and the tools the government has to monitor people are way beefier than they were back then. Facial recognition cameras, for example.

What prevents a dictator from issuing mandatory IDs? The resistance of the people. Yes, the government has police, and an army, and fighter jets, etc. But in the past few decades we have seen that insurgencies and popular resistance can succeed anyway -- the US got kicked out of Afghanistan and had a lot of trouble in Iraq, Ukraine is outfighting Russia despite massive disadvantages numerically and technologically, and even in China the government softened the zero-Covid program after mass protests. The people have more power than we think and can resist such things, if they want to.

Re: BundesMessenger, a secure messenger for Germany’s public administration

#135

Post by galaxyLogic » Fri, Dec 16, 2022, 7:50 PM UTC

Hamuko wrote: post #94

galaxyLogic wrote: post #92

This is great "Matrix is the equivalent to SMTP". Goodbye Microsoft or Slack -specific chat services. Welcome them to compete with their Matrix client-apps. And hey, we're in the Matrix finally.

Now I'm just waiting for the Matrix app that I don't hate. And for that matter, the SMTP app that I don't hate.

I wonder if Matrix could be used for social media

Re: BundesMessenger, a secure messenger for Germany’s public administration

#136

Post by archsurface » Fri, Dec 16, 2022, 7:53 PM UTC

I know someone who works in the digital id space, and the businesses pushing this stuff at the governments are far more interested in their business than your rights. And governments have a habit of slipping in things they find convenient. With some insider insight I'd suggest pushing back very hard against this sort of thing.

Re: BundesMessenger, a secure messenger for Germany’s public administration

#137

Post by Fargren » Fri, Dec 16, 2022, 7:54 PM UTC

twblalock wrote: post #134

Fargren wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both of the examples I used had mandatory state IDs during their dictatorships. The IDs were not significantly instrumental to the government's power. I don't think the addition of RFID really would change that in the event of a new dictatorship. But even if mandatory RFID IDs were a critical tool of authoritarian governments, what would prevent the dictator from issuing mandatory IDs after taking power?

First of all, during the Franco government the internet was an academic curiosity and nobody carried smartphones. That has all changed, and the tools the government has to monitor people are way beefier than they were back then. Facial recognition cameras, for example. What prevents a dictator from issuing mandatory IDs? The resistance of the people. Yes, the government has police, and an army, and fighter jets, etc.…

All I'm saying is I don't see how the pre-existance of mandatory ID under a democratic government would be a significant boon for an eventual dictatorship. I understand that based on principle one might prefer not to have them, but to me they are really innocuous and extremely practical.

Unlike facial recognition cameras, which there's at least some political will to ban (https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-edges-closer-to-a-ban...).

Re: BundesMessenger, a secure messenger for Germany’s public administration

#138

Post by Arathorn » Fri, Dec 16, 2022, 8:11 PM UTC

olivierduval wrote: post #112

I find really nice that Europe "as a whole" is starting to share the same solutions to the same problems !!! Remember "Tchap" ( https://www.tchap.fr/ ), the French Gov messenger system based on Matrix ? ;-)

Tchap is doing great actually :)

Re: BundesMessenger, a secure messenger for Germany’s public administration

#139

Post by logifail » Fri, Dec 16, 2022, 8:12 PM UTC

jszymborski wrote: post #78

catiopatio wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn’t take a religious nut or a conspiracy theorist to see the catastrophically enormous downsides of universally mandated, centrally managed, and cryptographically-backed state identification cards, complete with RFID. Imagine, for example, that upon declaring a protest unlawful, the police could simply scan all the RFID-enabled ID cards in the area and issue everyone a court summons. Not carrying an ID card? N…

See, I totally agree that you shouldn't require identification for most services. But, for things like banking, car registration, etc... we require strong ID'ing, and it behooves society to make it secure. I still think municipalities should own their own data rather than have it stored at a central federal level, but we need municipalities to rely on something better than a serially-issued social insurance/security…

> car registration, etc... we require strong ID'ing

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "strong"?

I've been involved in precisely three car purchases over the last 20 years, and I don't recall what was involved in the way of ID checks. Have the feeling that at most some government-issued ID may have been pulled out of a wallet, presented ... and glanced at. The dealer handled the registration in every case.

Oh, and in all three of those purchases we drove a (brand new) vehicle away from the dealer having paid not even a deposit and clutching a paper invoice(!) with the verbal instruction to pay it "straight away".

Guess we seemed trustworthy :)

Re: BundesMessenger, a secure messenger for Germany’s public administration

#140

Post by Xylakant » Fri, Dec 16, 2022, 8:15 PM UTC

beardedman wrote: post #89

Xylakant wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I prefer cash and would at the same time use an encrypted messenger to communicate with the government. While cards are certainly convenient, they have failed me at very inopportune moments. I’ve also recently witnessed how someone could not book a ticket for a ferry in one of the mostly cashless European states - cash wasn’t an option and they didn’t have a card. This was at the official counter at the harbor. A few…

I am not a young person anymore & card payments have almost never failed for me (unless it was for a specific/resolvable reason). > A few month ago, card terminals of a widely used type failed hard in Germany, only cash payment was possible. This exactly is part of my point. > or my medical provider is entirely orthogonal to that. I prefer a medical provider that does a good job & shares my data, rather than incompet…

I have had cards expire and the new cards sent to an outdated address, and when that was discovered, the bank blocked all cards since they could have fallen into the wrong hands. I happened to be traveling at that time. I’ve had cards be blocked due to random fluctuations in the usage pattern. Calling usually helps a to resolve this, though it usually takes time. I’ve had an ATM eat my card and not return it. I have entered the wrong pin once too many. I’ve had my bank replay all transactions from at the beginning of the month twice, debiting the rent and all payments twice, and overdrawing my account, blocking my cards. Shit happens. Cash was always an option to solve this.

> > A few month ago, card terminals of a widely used type failed hard in Germany, only cash payment was possible.

> This exactly is part of my point.

I don’t understand how this is part of your point. It was a bug that required exchanging the terminals - either some kind of hardware or a borked software update that left the terminals unable to function. Shit happens, in hardware, too. It’s not like other countries are magically exempt from failures of their digital infrastructure.