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A Linux Evening

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Re: A Linux Evening

#231
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, but I actually wanted to learn low level stuffs, or I thought I wanted. Anyway I'll see what happens. So far nothing really clicks for me but if that's it then that's it.

What types of low-level things did you want to learn? A lot of what seem low-level in Linux are implementation-specific things. For example, how you set up wifi or how you manage your firewall. Knowledge of these things gives you less long-lived and less transferable skills than knowledge of protocols like TCP/IP which is shared by everything that is plugged to the internet. It doesn't make you a better programmer, u…

> What types of low-level things did you want to learn?

To be honest, I've dabbed in a lot of low level stuffs but never went deep enough to make any impact, career-wise at least. For example I completed a full course on MCU programming, completed the first half of nand2tetris, read the first few hundreds of pages of "Beginner Reverse Engineering" (basically the part that teaches one to recognize C from decompiled assembly code), and many others. My most recent low level adventure was the book "Practical Binary Analysis" which I planned to use the whole holiday to push maybe a few chapters.

But I never drilled deep enough into any of the topics. I believe I have the brain to drill at least a few more chapters deeper for any of them, but I don't have the mental power to do it. I secretly want someone to put me into some sort of prison and keep me from getting out until I completed all previous projects and learnings. But of course I need to figure out a way to deal with the problem.

Anyway, really appreciate your answer, and probably I'll still install Archlinux, play with it a few days and then lose interest -- just another failed project to spend time.

Re: A Linux Evening

#232
Take away 0:

Good error messages are important pointers. Make sure you include good, unique, descriptive errors in software you write.

When you figure out a solution, post it online with the error message so others can search it to make the connection and get to the solution more easily.

Re: A Linux Evening

#233

Been using arch as my first and only *nix for about 4 years now, most of the pain points have been smoothed out, usually you can find answers by searching whatever errors you see or checking dmesg. If you're a CS person, it really isn't hard to solve most issues and reason about, it's just normal debugging / docs / forums. In the event that you're doing something weird and niche, or you really cant find your info, yo…

[deleted]

Re: A Linux Evening

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, but I actually wanted to learn low level stuffs, or I thought I wanted. Anyway I'll see what happens. So far nothing really clicks for me but if that's it then that's it.

People say "Arch makes you learn how Linux really works", but I don't think that's a good way to put it. Arch teaches you about the most boring parts of how linux works: the specific idiosyncrasies and configuration minutiae of a ton of libraries and programs (GNU coreutils, systemd, udev, mesa, glib, X11, Xlib, xdg, dbus, etc.) Arch will usually not teach you the really interesting "low level" things about Linux: Ho…

I'd say it teaches you how to use Linux. It's not the particular details of each config file, but the fact that there are config files, and where to look for them. By the end of an Arch install, you know at least 85% of how to manage your system, and wiki will take you to let's say 98%.

Re: A Linux Evening

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While tongue in cheek, the answer is accurate: open source does not mean "free service contract", it means that you can take the code and modify yourself (and preferably upstream the fix). Patches come both from vendors and users experiencing an issue. Vendors take care of most things, but for esoteric problems you might only have a handful of people experiencing it. The vendor is unlikely to care, so if you do not w…

You're doing the same thing, dragging the original conversation off into berating the commentor for not fixing it themselves because you owe them nothing and they shouldn't be so entitled. > " Still better than the competition, where such problems will never be fixed unless it generates sufficient bad PR... " The competition comes under "pay someone else to do it".

> You're doing the same thing, dragging the original conversation off into berating the commentor for not fixing it themselves because you owe them nothing and they shouldn't be so entitled.

Ah, this argument again. Yeah, the maintainers owe you nothing, as they have already worked their asses off to give you something for free. You have the right to make polite bug reports and discuss fixes, but no one is entitled to force volunteers to do work.

But, that is not the same thing as everyone having to fix their own shit. 100 million users does not need 100 million developers.

What matters is that the users that have issues can fix issues, and if the issue affects enough people, it will eventually affect someone able and willing to fix it. That is why open source works, but it requires that some people put in the effort, and many learn to do it exactly when they get annoyed by a bug.

So yeah, if you are not willing to wait for someone else to come around and volunteer to fix it, patch it yourself or pay someone else to do it. That's how the system works, regardless of how demeaning you feel this is to non-developers or developers that feel that their time is more valuable than that of others.

> The competition comes under "pay someone else to do it".

Sure, if you have enough money to convince Apple or Microsoft specifically to prioritize fixing your issue (which may be in an unsupported or deprecated configuration) above what else they were doing, which would cost a whole lot more than just engineer and manager time. You have no alternative, as only your specific vendor can make the fix. Realistically speaking, if you had that kind of money you probably already have employed engineers that you could get to fix your open source issues for you and would not be arguing on hacker news about the need to write patches.

For open source, you don't have to convince anyone in particular. Can't convince the first person you try with money? Just ask the next person, anyone can submit the patch.

Re: A Linux Evening

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While tongue in cheek, the answer is accurate: open source does not mean "free service contract", it means that you can take the code and modify yourself (and preferably upstream the fix). Patches come both from vendors and users experiencing an issue. Vendors take care of most things, but for esoteric problems you might only have a handful of people experiencing it. The vendor is unlikely to care, so if you do not w…

What it sounds like you’re saying is “If you don’t know how to code, GTFO” because in all likelihood the parent made this comment because they’re not capable.

Not quite. If you are a non-developer not patient enough to wait for others to volunteer, or are a developer thinking that your time is somehow more valuable than those of the maintainers, then GTFO. :)

Waiting patiently and politely reporting bugs is a fine strategy: If a problem affects enough people, it will eventually affect a developer capable and willing to fix it. If you want it go faster, you will have to get your hands dirty - many contributors acquired the skills exactly because they were annoyed by an issue and decided to fix it.

Re: A Linux Evening

#237

This post resonates strongly with me. I love the term "a linux evening." This was precisely my experience when I used Linux full time: mostly it worked great, but then occasionally something wouldn't work (some personal examples: touchpad doesn't work after OS update, wifi card stops working etc.) and then I have to spend a few frustrating hours debugging the issue. All I can think in these moments is "you don't get…

> if I used a different platform, I could avoid this hassle completely?

Where is this mythical platform?

If something like this happened on Windows, you'd just end up clicking around arbitrary settings, googling desperately, and rebooting over and over again, until you reinstalled the entire OS. That option is also available with Linux.

Re: A Linux Evening

#238

If OP used Windows exclusively, he'd have Windows evenings. There's tools that people complain about, and tools that people don't use.

This reasoning implies that every OS is equally buggy in ways that impact usability. I think this is likely untrue. I don’t think it really matters if windows bugs exist, but how often they occur and impact use of the tool.

That implication would be a bad one, but in the specific case of a bland Linux distro (let's say Debian) vs. Windows I haven't ever seen much difference between the number of problems you run into.

The major difference for me is that Linux problems are always theoretically operator-fixable i.e. the information needed to fix your problem is available to you, even if you're not technical enough to understand it. The means to fix Windows problems are frequently not accessible at all, anywhere.

While I've had plenty of Linux evenings, I've had stuff broken on Windows that stretched into weeks until I finally gave up and reinstalled.

Re: A Linux Evening

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the issue is that frequently the problem is with a small part of a complex subsystem that you don't understand (or perhaps didn't even know existed) before something went wrong. This sort of problem is extremely time consuming to debug via "properly" learning about the system, so you end up (much like Fabien) taking a fix from somewhere without fully understanding it. There's also a timing issue. Often when s…

Part of it is the binary config nature of Regedit though. I can't, from first or second principles, reason about which binary key to flip in order to change the behavior I'm looking for. Was it HKLM/ffebdcaaf, or HKLM/afbedccfh? Meanwhile if, eg dns got broken on my Linux box, there's a series of config files and daemons to check in order to figure out what's broken and then to get it working again. There's no way to…

Eh, having worked with both systems, I'd say they're roughly equally impenetrable. For sure, the registry sucks. But at least it's uniform and scriptable. Once you know what needs to be changed, you can write a .reg file and be reasonably confident it will at least change the registry in a valid way.

On the other hand, if the solution to a problem on Linux is to change some dotfile controlling some daemon, reliably scripting it can be difficult to impossible. Did the distro put the config file somewhere weird? Is awk good enough here? What if the key I'm looking to update is found in a comment, and what is the commenting structure for this file anyway? What if the daemon rewrites its config file on exit [0]? Or has a config file with an extremely complex format [1]? Or I need to poke several /sys files in a particular order [2]?

Both systems are hard to reason about, especially if you don't know them. But Linux isn't easy to approach for the first time, and there are advantages to the way Windows does things.

[0]: https://askubuntu.com/questions/251797/transmission-daemon-k... [1]: https://www.sudo.ws/docs/man/1.8.15/sudoers.man/#SUDOERS_FIL... [2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-IWMbJXoLM

Re: A Linux Evening

#240
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. If you don't encounter any trouble daily driving GNU/Linux, that is actually a sign of inexperience. That or you're doing nothing interesting. There are 3 type of person who knows a lot about cars: 1. A Car mechanic 2. People who love cars, and tinker them constantly 3. People who have a shitty car and something always breaks. Personally I'm not a car guy, I treat them as tools. I can do this because I always ha…

My point here is that if you use Linux enough, then you will encounter issues, period, regardless of your technical level.

The same thing is true if you use a pencil enough. The question is whether you run into issues significantly more often than the commercial alternatives.
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