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Female spies of MI6

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Re: Female spies of MI6

#171

Post by twic »

munificent wrote: post #97
twic wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's a lot of misunderstanding here. A key thing to appreciate is that the women in this article, including Rebecca, are not spies . They are civil servants [1] working in a very sensitive area of government. None of them are undercover, or sneaking into Russian bases. It's a sensible precaution for them to keep quiet about what they do, but it's not like their ability to do their job depends on absolute s…

The definition of "spy" that I know is that they are people who cultivate relationships with "agents" or "assets": people who have access to important secret information and are willing to share it. Most spies don't go into forbidden places and physically dig up secrets themselves. It's infinitely easier to get to know someone who already knows those secrets and persuade them to tell.

That's not the correct definition. A spy is someone who does spying, and spying is obtaining information illicitly. Like the Cambridge Five:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Five

Or Aldrich Ames:

https://www.fbi.gov/history/famous-cases/aldrich-ames

Someone who manages spies is an intelligence officer.

Re: Female spies of MI6

#173

Post by implements »

bpye wrote: post #159
jll29 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK, the government has a firm grip on the media, and that is enshrined by law; that's why The Guardian broke the Snowden story from their U.S. office, where freedom of speech is (more) protected. The author is a former security correspondent, and was perhaps chosen as someone known and trusted. The article is a recruiting piece targeting well-educated females; but the same (Oxbridge) females can earn six digit…

> The article is a recruiting piece targeting well-educated females; but the same (Oxbridge) females can earn six digits in finance and stay safe, instead of earning 22k and getting shot in Kandahar or stabbed in Najaf. One wonders if that combination of compensation and dangerous job spec attracts reckless or idealists personalities. I always found that the pay scale for the security services is the same as the rest…

Youthful idealism, access to cutting edge ideas and kit, stepping stone to a highly paid GCHQ contracting jobs … ?

Other possibilities: Perhaps the headline pay is low but there’s a ton of special allowances and other benefits that make the whole package competitive. Perhaps, like academics, there’s some gifted people who are a much better personality fit for the civil service rather than FANG culture?

Re: Female spies of MI6

#174

Post by martopix »

the_af wrote: post #83
martopix wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair point, but in defence of the author, I think there's a huge difference between having some women in positions of power and the attitude that people have towards women in daily life. I can totally imagine a society in which certain women from privileged background can rise to power (if, regarding north korea, you're talking about Kim Jong Un's sister, that's a great example), and yet the assumption most people ha…

Yes, I was thinking of Kim Jong-un's sister. Agreed that spies do not have "power" in that sense; I was just echoing the words of TFA and showing counterexamples. Most armies of the world are sexist in any case, why single out the current adversaries of the West? Western armies are traditionally sexist as well. Yes, now there are some high ranking officers and even generals in some of the most modern Western armies -…

Yes, in this sense I agree.

Re: Female spies of MI6

#175

Post by etrevino »

bpye wrote: post #159
jll29 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK, the government has a firm grip on the media, and that is enshrined by law; that's why The Guardian broke the Snowden story from their U.S. office, where freedom of speech is (more) protected. The author is a former security correspondent, and was perhaps chosen as someone known and trusted. The article is a recruiting piece targeting well-educated females; but the same (Oxbridge) females can earn six digit…

> The article is a recruiting piece targeting well-educated females; but the same (Oxbridge) females can earn six digits in finance and stay safe, instead of earning 22k and getting shot in Kandahar or stabbed in Najaf. One wonders if that combination of compensation and dangerous job spec attracts reckless or idealists personalities. I always found that the pay scale for the security services is the same as the rest…

Not everyone is motivated by money. And if these are Oxbridge kids they may not need the cash anyway.

Re: Female spies of MI6

#176

Post by fahadkhan »

eternalban wrote: post #88
sicp-enjoyer wrote: post #23

The propoganda vibes are pretty high for me.

FT just raising their skirt a bit, showing ankles. The relationship between international finance and intelligence goes back to Napoleonic wars.

Reminds me of Mary Poppins "When fall the banks of England, England falls!"

Re: Female spies of MI6

#177

Post by bpye »

etrevino wrote: post #175
bpye wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The article is a recruiting piece targeting well-educated females; but the same (Oxbridge) females can earn six digits in finance and stay safe, instead of earning 22k and getting shot in Kandahar or stabbed in Najaf. One wonders if that combination of compensation and dangerous job spec attracts reckless or idealists personalities. I always found that the pay scale for the security services is the same as the rest…

Not everyone is motivated by money. And if these are Oxbridge kids they may not need the cash anyway.

> Not everyone is motivated by money.

Sure but if you take a student loan in the U.K. starting pay in the civil service wouldn’t even put you above the repayment threshold. I get that there are levels, but unless you have support or a partner the starting pay really isn’t enough especially if you’re in London. Cheltenham or Manchester - maybe.

Re: Female spies of MI6

#178

Post by PenguinCoder »

hallway_monitor wrote: post #110
PenguinCoder wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not me. I just want them to cut my hair. No talking, just cut.

Obligatory "I'm sure you're fun at parties". Honestly though why would anyone have this attitude? It seems like having a conversation with someone while getting your hair cut has zero downside, and the guaranteed upside both of you being a little more entertained. Possible upsides are actually getting into a meaningful conversation or stumbling on a new opportunity. Seems like a win-win to me.

> Honestly though why would anyone have this attitude

WHAT? I am paying for a service. I expect that service to be completed well. And it typically is. The service I am paying for does not include nor warrant "small talk", why should it?

> has zero downside

Incorrect. I have to pretend to be interested in whatever inane topic they want to discuss, or ones I don't have any interest in or care about. I have to use my brain power on a useless distraction.

> a meaningful conversation

I don't want a meaningful conversation from a haircut. Nor do I want it while shopping, or a mechanics shop, or any other random ass place where I am trying to get errands done. Service, money, done. Nothing else needed. Not everyone wants to deal with -you- or your fake ass pleasantries. I don't want to deal with someone pretending to know me, or like me, or be nice because _its literally their job_. I want to pay for my services and go away.

Re: Female spies of MI6

#179

Post by mpalfrey »

bpye wrote: post #161
implements wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s certainly a PR piece - I wondered what the purpose was beyond the obvious and naive ‘getting more women into Intelligence’? Elsewhere there’s been news stories about British MPs complaining that the security and intelligence services have too high a media profile … so perhaps there’s some ‘push and pull’ going on behind the scenes.

> Elsewhere there’s been news stories about British MPs complaining that the security and intelligence services have too high a media profile … so perhaps there’s some ‘push and pull’ going on behind the scenes. Likely true. I can only really talk for GCHQ, but they have certainly made a significant effort in recruitment for years, growing up near a GCHQ ground station we had a visit during my final year pre-universi…

Apparently there are some companies who are suppliers to these organisations who do pay better, but otherwise, yes. The salaries are pretty poor. I get that some people would want to work there for the kudos, but compared to tech companies the advertised salaries aren't great.

Re: Female spies of MI6

#180

Post by etrevino »

bpye wrote: post #177
etrevino wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everyone is motivated by money. And if these are Oxbridge kids they may not need the cash anyway.

> Not everyone is motivated by money. Sure but if you take a student loan in the U.K. starting pay in the civil service wouldn’t even put you above the repayment threshold. I get that there are levels, but unless you have support or a partner the starting pay really isn’t enough especially if you’re in London. Cheltenham or Manchester - maybe.

That's fair, but this is why the "targeted at Oxbridge kids" thing is so important. Sure, some are paying with loans, but most don't need them.

Really, this isn't about targeting a specific level of education, it's about targeting a specific class.

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