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Wendy Carlos: The brilliant but lonely life of an electronic music pioneer

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Re: Wendy Carlos: The brilliant but lonely life of an electronic music pioneer

#61

Post by howinteresting »

jancsika wrote: post #55
howinteresting wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm trans myself, and my general belief is that Steinem's position is far more defensible if we didn't have our personal lived experiences with gender dysphoria, or the evidence for things like regret rates for gender-affirming surgeries being very low. Second-wave feminism on trans issues was largely incorrect and harmful, but that is mostly a contingent fact rather than a necessary one. This is as opposed to second…

> Second-wave feminism on trans issues was largely incorrect and harmful, but that is mostly a contingent fact rather than a necessary one. Not sure I understand what that means. Just to clarify: I don't have the research in front of me, but I'd be willing to bet that by 1977 there were at least two or three decades of research on trans issues relevant to Steinem's words about trans people. E.g., more than enough to…

Well, the issue is that a lot of the trans research that had been conducted by then got burned by the Nazis. The modern idea of gender identity which is now widely recognized as the best possible explanation for the empirical outcomes we see was just being formed, and the dominant players in the field were still "sexologists" who decided whether someone was trans based on how attracted they personally were to their patient.

(John Money, who created the idea of gender identity in the 50s, was wildly off base about the specifics, which resulted in the tragic human rights violation of David Reimer, a cisgender man forced to live as a girl with crippling gender dysphoria. He also lied about the success of his forced gender reassignments, which resulted in routine intersex genital mutilation -- the one procedure that every single right-wing US bill banning gender-affirming healthcare for minors carefully excludes!)

Or at least that's my read of the situation! I could be wrong.

Re: Wendy Carlos: The brilliant but lonely life of an electronic music pioneer

#62

Post by pavlov »

thefounder wrote: post #42
bane wrote: post #19

I grew up in a very religiously conservative household and was raised to not think "well" of trans people. Simultaneously one of my favorite soundtracks of all time was the music to the original 1982 Tron. I had never heard anything quite like it compositionally, or sonically. Sweeping orchestras blended in with synthetic beeps, and bold vistas. It fit the aesthetic of the movie perfectly and was such a daring film p…

Quoted post unavailable.

> “I can't remember last time when I've seen(in person) a transexual person.”

How do you know? Presumably you’re not doing a genital inspection on most people.

If you assume you can just tell, it’s easy to err into many false positives. (A section of the American far right seems to genuinely believe that Michelle Obama is trans — not just as an insult they like to throw around, but literally.)

Re: Wendy Carlos: The brilliant but lonely life of an electronic music pioneer

#63

Post by gertrui »

sassyonsunday wrote: post #28
gertrui wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

edit In retrospect this was sort of mean of you to say: > It doesn't help either when males who opt-in to this beauty standard Do you go around telling girls they have to try to look less pleasing to men and more pleasing to your own sensibilities? Aren't you just taking the place of the "male gaze" at that point and replacing it with your own gaze and your own demands to be satisfied? I like looking a certain way. I…

> Aren't you just taking the place of the "male gaze" at that point and replacing it with your own gaze and your own demands to be satisfied?

No, women should be free to present however they please, that's my point. We shouldn't feel pressure to conform to imposed ideals of femininity, to be praised for it or knocked for not complying.

Re: Wendy Carlos: The brilliant but lonely life of an electronic music pioneer

#64

Post by jancsika »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #45
jancsika wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look back in the article at what she was sacrificing in order to avoid potential problems. She had Stevie Wonder and George Harrison in her house and couldn't make herself walk down the stairs to meet them. When she did meet face to face with people, she pasted on sideburns and dressed in a suit to appear as a man. I mean, think about that last part for a moment. Gender dysphoria caused distress in Carlos. Transition…

Makes sense. Do you think a public musician today might have the experience of "“The public turned out to be amazingly tolerant or, if you wish, indifferent", though? It still seems to me that something has changed here, for the worse. That it's very unlikely that such a public figure today could discover that despite their fears"the public" was largely indifferent and unconcerned about it. sassyonsunday below, who I…

> Which doesn't necessarily conflict with anything you said.

Yeah, I guess I don't see any conflict or disagreement here.

Re: Wendy Carlos: The brilliant but lonely life of an electronic music pioneer

#65

Post by JKCalhoun »

I was working behind the counter at a booth at Macworld, Boston — maybe 1991 or so? A woman behind the booth with me suddenly said, "That was Wendy Carlos!", about someone who had just walked away from the booth. Dumb me was busy doing something and hadn't been paying attention.

Ha ha, those little moments in life when you're asleep at the wheel.

Re: Wendy Carlos: The brilliant but lonely life of an electronic music pioneer

#66

Post by howinteresting »

thefounder wrote: post #42
bane wrote: post #19

I grew up in a very religiously conservative household and was raised to not think "well" of trans people. Simultaneously one of my favorite soundtracks of all time was the music to the original 1982 Tron. I had never heard anything quite like it compositionally, or sonically. Sweeping orchestras blended in with synthetic beeps, and bold vistas. It fit the aesthetic of the movie perfectly and was such a daring film p…

Quoted post unavailable.

> I wonder, who was raised to think well of trans people?

Well, we should all try and make the world better, right? Many kids and young adults today have been raised with a sense of curiosity and empathy rather than one of scorn and judgment, and that includes fully supporting trans people. That is surely true of older adults as well, especially those whose parents are trans themselves or have close friends/relatives who are trans.

Re: Wendy Carlos: The brilliant but lonely life of an electronic music pioneer

#67

Post by jacquesm »

pavlov wrote: post #62
thefounder wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

> “I can't remember last time when I've seen(in person) a transexual person.” How do you know? Presumably you’re not doing a genital inspection on most people. If you assume you can just tell, it’s easy to err into many false positives. (A section of the American far right seems to genuinely believe that Michelle Obama is trans — not just as an insult they like to throw around, but literally.)

> A section of the American far right seems to genuinely believe that Michelle Obama is trans — not just as an insult they like to throw around, but literally.

Which is pretty incredible all by itself. But people seem to be very susceptible to contracting this kind of mind-virus and then becoming instrumental in spreading it. But at the root of these things are some very malicious people. One of them is on trial in NL right now, and I'm really happy to see the structural and deliberate approach to finding out where the limits on just being able to spout off are. The damage these characters do is real, and - ironically - the biggest risk to free speech comes from them.

Re: Wendy Carlos: The brilliant but lonely life of an electronic music pioneer

#69

Post by jacquesm »

MomoXenosaga wrote: post #35
sassyonsunday wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I actually wonder if things have gotten worse over the past few years. They've gotten consistently worse since about 2015. I started transitioning in 2009 when I was 18. I come from a very conservative environment and growing up I'd even tried to come out as gay a few times only to be "shot down" more or less but in college I used my own money and I found doctors to help me look how I wanted and I started dating me…

I am happy if gender therapy helped you I think it is fine for society to be critical however. I don't want to see documentaries in 20 years about people having regrets. Sadly any discussion is immediately considered a personal attack so we two camps.

It's pretty simple actually: if it's not your body then it is none of your business.
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