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Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

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Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#121

Post by aaomidi »

nyolfen wrote: post #87
kaio wrote: post #42

Key takeaway: >>The reported incidence of (epi-)myocarditis after vaccination is low and the risks of hospitalization and death associated with COVID-19 are stated to be greater than the recorded risk associated with COVID-19 vaccination [29].

the more interesting unaddressed question is, for whom ? i am a young-ish healthy person, i have basically no risk of ending up in the hospital for covid. what is the risk tradeoff for people similar to me, rather than an abstraction of the entire population? what is the risk tradeoff for a young child, who effectively has zero risk of serious covid?

Why do people keep thinking young people have no risk of ending up in the hospital for Covid? So many people have, and so many have died?

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#122

Post by PragmaticPulp »

estewart wrote: post #37

The last paragraph in the article literally indicates there is no causal relationship or proof of any direct link between the vaccination and myocarditis. > "Finally, we cannot provide a definitive functional proof or a direct causal link between vaccination and myocarditis."

It's also important to note that although they looked at 35 autopsies for people who died in the period after vaccination, only 4 of them had signs of myocarditis. 10 of them had very clearly unrelated causes of death (e.g. pre-existing conditions, easily identifiable external causes). I don't think people realize just how frequent death, including unexplained death, can be when you're looking at population-level sample sizes:

> In four patients who received a mRNA vaccination, we identified acute (epi-)myocarditis without detection of another significant disease or health constellation that may have caused an unexpected death.

They found some interesting clues that suggest it might be related to accidental intravascular injection:

> Interestingly, we recorded inflammatory foci predominantly in the right heart, which may suggest a gradual blood-stream derived dilution effect and based on this finding it is at least tempting to speculate that inadvertent intravascular vaccine injection may be contributive.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#123

Post by ada1981 »

jamespo wrote: post #58
estewart wrote: post #37

The last paragraph in the article literally indicates there is no causal relationship or proof of any direct link between the vaccination and myocarditis. > "Finally, we cannot provide a definitive functional proof or a direct causal link between vaccination and myocarditis."

Very few of the instant commenters read the study first it seems.

Haters will say it’s GPT-3ed.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#124

Post by eftychis »

torstenvl wrote: post #75
librish wrote: post #39

A question for vaccine skeptics: For it to be a reasonable choice to not want to take the vaccine wouldn't you need to balance the risk of death / complications from the vaccine against the risk of death / complications from covid multiplied by the risk of getting covid? There seems to be a lot of "aha I knew it" whenever any side-effect of the vaccine is found, but aren't the side-effects of covid well established,…

> to be a reasonable choice to not want to take the vaccine wouldn't you need to balance the risk of death / complications from the vaccine against the risk of death / complications from covid multiplied by the risk of getting covid No. Reasonable people make choices all the time that don't bear out under a cost-risk-benefit analysis like you propose. Those choices are still reasonable, despite perhaps not being stri…

The choices are acceptable, not reasonable. At least by the strict definition of reasonable -- we seem to be changing that definition similar to the world "literally."

> The value of individual freedom of choice is inherent unless there's an overwhelming and compelling reason to violate it.

This is a slippery slope easily. People should be given the choice.

And as people we have also the choice to judge people on their choice's results.

Especially if it causes other people to die. Right now we have failed as humanity at least 6,637,512 people and counting.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#125

Post by ceejayoz »

hammock wrote: post #79
estewart wrote: post #37

The last paragraph in the article literally indicates there is no causal relationship or proof of any direct link between the vaccination and myocarditis. > "Finally, we cannot provide a definitive functional proof or a direct causal link between vaccination and myocarditis."

The study also states: > In general, a causal link between myocarditis and anti-SARS-CoV-2 vaccination is supported by several considerations: (A) a close temporal relation to vaccination; all cases were found dead within one week after vaccination, (B) absence of any other significant pre-existing heart disease, especially ischaemic heart disease or cardiomyopathy, (C) negative testing for potential myocarditis-caus…

> In general, a causal link between myocarditis and anti-SARS-CoV-2 vaccination is supported by several considerations: (A) a close temporal relation to vaccination; all cases were found dead within one week after vaccination...

> Standardized autopsies were performed on 25 persons who had died unexpectedly and within 20 days after anti-SARS-CoV-2 vaccination.

This is a weird way of demonstrating a link. They picked them specifically for that, it can't be evidence of something. If they selected 25 people who died of myocarditis regardless of vaccination status or recency, and all 25 turned out to have been recently vaccinated, that would be scary data.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#126

Post by gfodor »

librish wrote: post #39

A question for vaccine skeptics: For it to be a reasonable choice to not want to take the vaccine wouldn't you need to balance the risk of death / complications from the vaccine against the risk of death / complications from covid multiplied by the risk of getting covid? There seems to be a lot of "aha I knew it" whenever any side-effect of the vaccine is found, but aren't the side-effects of covid well established,…

Depends on who and when. The idea of vaccinating my young kids in late 2022 is an absurd proposition to me personally - and if the state mandated it, we would leave. This will change once we understand what is happening with these fatalities and correct it.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#127

Post by putnambr »

usefulcat wrote: post #94
Mikeb85 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but aren't the side-effects of covid well established, on average more severe, and much more common? You forgot to account for the risk of getting the virus. If you choose to get the vaccine, the probability is 1. But what's the probability of getting Covid? Definitely less than 1. For certain age groups (young men), the risk of complications * probability of getting the vaccine (1) was more than the risk of compli…

> COVID hasn't been shown to be particularly dangerous to young people... In the short term yes, in the long term, that is not known.

In addition, ask any young person involved in sports how catching COVID has affected their training and performance. For mostly sedentary people it might feel like catching a bad cold and then recovering. If you're actually consistently pushing your lungs to their max there's definitely long-lasting (maybe not long-term) damage there.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#128

Post by adamiscool8 »

librish wrote: post #39

A question for vaccine skeptics: For it to be a reasonable choice to not want to take the vaccine wouldn't you need to balance the risk of death / complications from the vaccine against the risk of death / complications from covid multiplied by the risk of getting covid? There seems to be a lot of "aha I knew it" whenever any side-effect of the vaccine is found, but aren't the side-effects of covid well established,…

According to my governments stats, the COVID-19 hospitalization rate for my age + health cohort, when modestly adjusted for their known undercount of cases, is less than 1 in 3000.

Also by their stats, more than 1 in 2000 4-dose mRNA vaccine series have resulted in a serious adverse event reported by a health professional.

Then, factoring in the additional risk of acquiescing bodily autonomy to an opaque bureaucracy — considering what herding behaviors have been blatantly manufactured over the last few years, and the conflicting interests involved.

I think declining is a very reasonable choice.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#129

Post by pexabit »

librish wrote: post #39

A question for vaccine skeptics: For it to be a reasonable choice to not want to take the vaccine wouldn't you need to balance the risk of death / complications from the vaccine against the risk of death / complications from covid multiplied by the risk of getting covid? There seems to be a lot of "aha I knew it" whenever any side-effect of the vaccine is found, but aren't the side-effects of covid well established,…

No post body was provided.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#130

Post by pianoben »

joshuahedlund wrote: post #113
pianoben wrote: post #93

> Standardized autopsies were performed on 25 persons who had died unexpectedly and within 20 days after anti-SARS-CoV-2 vaccination. Sample size of 25 out of a population of... how many tens of millions of young (EDIT: not actually young) men? Seems quite small, and perhaps not sufficient to draw any conclusions. I wonder what the results will show... > myocarditis is another manifestation reported during SARS-CoV-2…

> out of 25 young men These were not young men > Three of the deceased persons were women, two men. Median age at death was 58 years (range 46–75 years).

My mistake; I misread something somewhere, and thought that the population was 30-and-younger men.
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