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Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

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Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#91
post #67

I am vaccinated but I am upvoting this post because I believe that it is important to investigate these cases to determine how to improve future vaccines. I really don't like how this topic seems to be treated like some fringe conspiracy theory. Maybe it is just a conspiracy, but we won't ever know until sufficient research has been done. Currently, I still believe that people should vaccinate, even if vaccines cause…

Well your feeling is wrong. The data gathering to establish the risks is why we don't just update the mRNA monthly based on the latest viral RNA.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#92
post #39

A question for vaccine skeptics: For it to be a reasonable choice to not want to take the vaccine wouldn't you need to balance the risk of death / complications from the vaccine against the risk of death / complications from covid multiplied by the risk of getting covid? There seems to be a lot of "aha I knew it" whenever any side-effect of the vaccine is found, but aren't the side-effects of covid well established,…

No I don’t need to balance anything based on your criteria. I and I alone decide what goes into my body. Anyone who is scared to walk outside and face hundreds of thousands of pathogens on a daily basis should remain at home. If you want a vaccine, go ahead and get one.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#93
> Standardized autopsies were performed on 25 persons who had died unexpectedly and within 20 days after anti-SARS-CoV-2 vaccination.

Sample size of 25 out of a population of... how many tens of millions of young (EDIT: not actually young) men? Seems quite small, and perhaps not sufficient to draw any conclusions. I wonder what the results will show...

> myocarditis is another manifestation reported during SARS-CoV-2-infection [24]. It is under debate whether myocarditis in COVID-19 is primarily caused by the viral infection or whether it occurs secondary as a consequence of the host´s immune response, in particular by T-lymphocyte-mediated cytotoxicity or as a consequence of the cytokine storm observed during COVID-19 [25].

Interesting!

> Finally, we cannot provide a definitive functional proof or a direct causal link between vaccination and myocarditis. Further studies and extended registry are needed to identify persons at risk for this potentially fatal AEFI and may be aided by detailed clinical, serological, and molecular analyses which were beyond the scope of this study.

So in total, out of 25 young men, 20 showed signs of cardiac damage. It's suggestive and merits more research. On the other hand, the authors offer no real ideas about how the damage could have happened, other than to observe that since similar damage happens as a result of COVID-19, maybe the immune response is the culprit (provoked by the vaccine, similarly as by the disease).

Far from any sort of smoking gun. It's important to keep that in mind.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#94
post #70
post #39

A question for vaccine skeptics: For it to be a reasonable choice to not want to take the vaccine wouldn't you need to balance the risk of death / complications from the vaccine against the risk of death / complications from covid multiplied by the risk of getting covid? There seems to be a lot of "aha I knew it" whenever any side-effect of the vaccine is found, but aren't the side-effects of covid well established,…

> but aren't the side-effects of covid well established, on average more severe, and much more common? You forgot to account for the risk of getting the virus. If you choose to get the vaccine, the probability is 1. But what's the probability of getting Covid? Definitely less than 1. For certain age groups (young men), the risk of complications * probability of getting the vaccine (1) was more than the risk of compli…

> COVID hasn't been shown to be particularly dangerous to young people...

In the short term yes, in the long term, that is not known.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My employer wouldn't let me go to the office or even any offsites or outdoor actives (i.e. a picnic) until very recently. (Despite my approved religious exemption and "requiring" all employees to work in the office). If that isn't coercion to take an experimental vaccine i don't know what is.

> approved religious exemption The wording is a telltale sign that the exemption is pure BS.

You might not like that the exemption exists, but it's legal in the USA. Would you rather that religious beliefs were not respected by the government?

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#96
post #8

We coerced young, low-risk people into receiving these treatments despite known side effects on pain of losing their education or employment or being able to enter privately-owned establishments (irrespective of the wishes of the owners of those privately-owned establishments). We justified it with the specious argument that they were putting other people at undue risk by remaining unvaccinated. We claimed that vacci…

We require young people to get vaccinated as a rule in order to obtain education. Every medical intervention involves risks. So does taking a shower or taking the bus to school. We all have to take risks and some of them are mandated for the good of society. There were very good indications that the vaccine would prevent spread. Public policy decisions which cost lives are not unusual and although tragic, are often n…

>There were very good indications that the vaccine would prevent spread.

Now that we know that to be not true, do you support removing the covid jab from the schedule required in school?

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#97
post #39

A question for vaccine skeptics: For it to be a reasonable choice to not want to take the vaccine wouldn't you need to balance the risk of death / complications from the vaccine against the risk of death / complications from covid multiplied by the risk of getting covid? There seems to be a lot of "aha I knew it" whenever any side-effect of the vaccine is found, but aren't the side-effects of covid well established,…

> For it to be a reasonable choice to not want to take the vaccine wouldn't you need to balance the risk of death / complications from the vaccine against the risk of death / complications from covid multiplied by the risk of getting covid?

Reasonable is subjective. I got the covid vaccine and had no concern for side effects. But I, like most people, don't bother getting the flu shot every year and I think that's perfectly reasonable despite me having no qualms about side effects. I simply don't care about the flu. Not getting the flu shot is one less reoccurring chore in my life that I don't have to bother with.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#98
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the numbers come out that net deaths are sharply negative, do you think we should similarly condemn those that spread fear and misinformation about the safety and efficacy of the vaccine? Or are "skeptics" immune from repercussions for their actions in this case?

The former group has been condemned, banned, ostracized, and dehumanized. To the degree any of them were acting on bad faith or in violation of their oaths, yes they should be condemned. But the deepest crimes lie elsewhere, by those in power who coerced others into taking drugs they did not want, who used ends-justify-the-means reasoning to violate ethics as physicians or public health officials, and who now continu…

Agree to disagree, I guess. I'd rather give the benefit of the doubt to those acting on the best information available at the time rather than "influencers" raising "concerns" based on nothing but their gut instincts.

Or to put it another way, how many vaccine skeptics were pushing for the heavy use of masks, better HVAC systems in buildings, and social distancing when possible? Because I've noticed a large correlation between those that spoke out against vaccines and those that spoke out against any preventative measures at all - regardless of how benign.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#99

The last paragraph in the article literally indicates there is no causal relationship or proof of any direct link between the vaccination and myocarditis. > "Finally, we cannot provide a definitive functional proof or a direct causal link between vaccination and myocarditis."

But in the intro: >> Thus, myocarditis can be a potentially lethal complication following mRNA-based anti-SARS-CoV-2 vaccination.

I would assume that means there is something going on.

To your point, medical researchers are IMHO kind of bad at accepting reality if they don't have a complete understanding. So if data show death by specific cause after vaccination, they will reject that conclusion if there is no proven mechanism for it. Rather than critique the study, they simply demand more information than anyone has.

Re: Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

#100
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vaccines were and still are mandated for people not at risk of severe disease, and myocarditis has been framed as a side effect not worth worrying about despite the fact that it literally can kill you. Not to mention without understanding the mechanism of action, we cannot estimate the number of true deaths that occurred without a myocarditis diagnosis.

> Besides pneumonia, myocarditis is another manifestation reported during SARS-CoV-2-infection [24]. I mean, your point only makes sense if you ignore that COVID causes the same myocarditis and ignore that the vaccine has been proven to reduce severity and duration of symptoms. This study was of 5 autopsies, unless you can prove this was incredibly widespread concern I don't understand why you think it would be bette…

The data on myocarditis has been clear and significant for quite some time: 1 in approximately 5000 young men under 40 by shot two. Without a full understanding of the underlying mechanism of action, we can’t be that confident of number of deaths due to the vaccine, but given the size of the deployed population and the recurrent nature of the shots it’s not unreasonable to think we killed tens of thousands of people with them.
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