Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Time to end the war on drugs

virgin.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

201–210 of 217 posts

Re: Time to end the war on drugs

#201

Post by veidr »

knieveltech wrote: post #148
seanp2k2 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe. I think that you're at least partially right, but I also think it has a lot to do with the Christian values that affect our laws way more than they should (see also: abortion laws in USA.) >Its purpose it to line the pockets of the politicians who support it. I would say that it's more for the large pharmaceutical companies. Politicians are cheap these days, and the profits from the "war on drugs" are orders o…

I think both of you are on the right track but may be mistaken regarding who stands to profit the most from continued prohibition. Both local law enforcement and the for-profit companies behind our jails profit enormously from the US having the highest percentage of population incarcerated of any first world country. The majority of individuals currently doing time are in for drug-related crimes.

You are right. There are indeed various entities whose advocacy of their own self-interests and belief systems tends to promote the traditional failed American drug policy. Drug makers, religious zealots, etc... even individuals, small businesses, and schools (such as, say, those located where aggressive or even thuggish levels of law enforcement make that particular place safer on a local, short-term basis).

For-profit prisons, however, are the most direct beneficiaries of the (completely fucking insane) "war on drugs". For-profit prisons are one of the best examples of how an otherwise fairly functional democratic society can end up with a system of profoundly deranged incentives that visits grievous harm upon a staggering number of people.

These institutions conduct a program of systematic, industrialized dehumanization of millions of people -- including millions of people who have never harmed another person. In my view, this makes them evil, profoundly evil.

Although this sounds extreme to some people (especially those who have never paused to think it through), I put America's industrial prisons in the same league with the Nazi extermination camps. America doesn't actually starve people to death or gas them in ovens, but that's a matter of degrees. America does separate children from parents and force nonviolent human beings to live out their lives as caged animals. Millions and millions and millions of them.

There is not much about America so disgusting and disgraceful.

Re: Time to end the war on drugs

#202

Post by tomwalker »

da_dude4242 wrote: post #200
tomwalker wrote: post #184

I am a doctor in a Scottish hospital. For every productive member of society using drugs there must be at least 2 -3 that drain from society I rarely see anyone use methadone long term and rehabilitate themselves back to productive members of society. They end up being permanently high. My opinion is not isolated amongst my colleagues. Spend a couple of hours in a hospital that provides free health care and see the d…

>For every productive member of society using drugs there must be at least 2 -3 that drain from society On what grounds do you make this claim? Perhaps for every user that makes it to your hospital there are 2-3 that don't and are relatively adjusted. Drugs certainly have their hazards but it's fallacious to extrapolate the big picture from the perspective you are presenting.

Here is a paper http://www.bmj.com/content/331/7529/1352

"A total of 1 486 800 prescriptions for methadone were issued in 2003" and "A total of 1 486 800 prescriptions for methadone were issued in 2003"

These are both methadone substitutes.

I have done time in community psychiatry and addiction psychiatry.

My best friend is a psychiatrist that spends a lot of time with drug addicts.

I have seen the results, and the HUGE costs, with my own eyes.

Re: Time to end the war on drugs

#203

Post by tomwalker »

da_dude4242 wrote: post #200
tomwalker wrote: post #184

I am a doctor in a Scottish hospital. For every productive member of society using drugs there must be at least 2 -3 that drain from society I rarely see anyone use methadone long term and rehabilitate themselves back to productive members of society. They end up being permanently high. My opinion is not isolated amongst my colleagues. Spend a couple of hours in a hospital that provides free health care and see the d…

>For every productive member of society using drugs there must be at least 2 -3 that drain from society On what grounds do you make this claim? Perhaps for every user that makes it to your hospital there are 2-3 that don't and are relatively adjusted. Drugs certainly have their hazards but it's fallacious to extrapolate the big picture from the perspective you are presenting.

Also:

Deaths due to overdose of opiates, for example, accounted for 9% of deaths in young Australian adults under the age of 50 in 1998 and for more than 10% in several European cities despite the fact that they were used by less than 1% of adults in any year.

572kg of methadone, which is not the only heroin substitute, is prescribed each year. The cost of the medical staff, the supervised consumption, security around it etc is enormous. That is for a population of 5 million people in the whole of Scotland.

No evidence exists of any sustained heroin shortage or reduction in the number of heroin users in the UK over the study period. In fact, all indices of the availability and use of heroin, including deaths due to heroin overdose, rose steadily during the study period,41 as did the number of heroin dependent people being treated by methadone maintenance.

http://www.bmj.com/content/341/bmj.c4851.full

Re: Time to end the war on drugs

#204

Post by da_dude4242 »

tomwalker wrote: post #202
da_dude4242 wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>For every productive member of society using drugs there must be at least 2 -3 that drain from society On what grounds do you make this claim? Perhaps for every user that makes it to your hospital there are 2-3 that don't and are relatively adjusted. Drugs certainly have their hazards but it's fallacious to extrapolate the big picture from the perspective you are presenting.

Here is a paper http://www.bmj.com/content/331/7529/1352 "A total of 1 486 800 prescriptions for methadone were issued in 2003" and "A total of 1 486 800 prescriptions for methadone were issued in 2003" These are both methadone substitutes. I have done time in community psychiatry and addiction psychiatry. My best friend is a psychiatrist that spends a lot of time with drug addicts. I have seen the results, and the H…

>I have done time in community psychiatry and addiction psychiatry.

I'm not arguing against the dangers of drugs. My point is if your only interaction with drug users is through people who have hit rock bottom then you are operating under a selection bias.

>I have seen the results, and the HUGE costs, with my own eyes.

How many of these costs are a result of the drugs being illegal? Lack of access to clean needles and clean drugs is what causes the spread of diseases like HIV and Hepatitis C. Artificial scarcity of drugs is the leading reason why addicts turn to crime.

Re: Time to end the war on drugs

#205

Post by da_dude4242 »

tomwalker wrote: post #203
da_dude4242 wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>For every productive member of society using drugs there must be at least 2 -3 that drain from society On what grounds do you make this claim? Perhaps for every user that makes it to your hospital there are 2-3 that don't and are relatively adjusted. Drugs certainly have their hazards but it's fallacious to extrapolate the big picture from the perspective you are presenting.

Also: Deaths due to overdose of opiates, for example, accounted for 9% of deaths in young Australian adults under the age of 50 in 1998 and for more than 10% in several European cities despite the fact that they were used by less than 1% of adults in any year. 572kg of methadone, which is not the only heroin substitute, is prescribed each year. The cost of the medical staff, the supervised consumption, security aroun…

>The cost of the medical staff, the supervised consumption, security around it etc is enormous. That is for a population of 5 million people in the whole of Scotland.

How does that compare to the cost of running drug enforcement agencies, prisons, or treating preventable drug related diseases?

Re: Time to end the war on drugs

#206

Post by eigenvector »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #37

Great article. I would like to further suggest we end the use of the word "war" in contexts that do not involve mandatory conscription and the deaths of large numbers of combatants until one side totally surrenders. (This implies there is a "side" to be able to surrender.) Politicians have so destroyed the word "war" that it's impossible to have a reasonable discussion about any use of violence by the state. Perhaps…

> I would like to further suggest we end the use of the word "war" in contexts that do not involve mandatory conscription and the deaths of large numbers of combatants until one side totally surrenders.

This is totally orthogonal to your main point, but by this definition the recent conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan would not qualify as wars.

Re: Time to end the war on drugs

#207

Post by bau5 »

lusr wrote: post #174
mbesto wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Excellent work, Dick. This isn't reddit. http://jacquesmattheij.com/The+Unofficial+HN+FAQ#downvoted

Richard = Dick.

Nope. Dick is a nickname that many people with the first name Richard use, but it's both rude and incorrect to use the name Dick for a Richard who doesn't go by Dick.

Re: Time to end the war on drugs

#208

Post by chunkyslink »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #37

Great article. I would like to further suggest we end the use of the word "war" in contexts that do not involve mandatory conscription and the deaths of large numbers of combatants until one side totally surrenders. (This implies there is a "side" to be able to surrender.) Politicians have so destroyed the word "war" that it's impossible to have a reasonable discussion about any use of violence by the state. Perhaps…

The 'War on Drugs' in the USA is simply a way for the government to heavily arm the police in order to enforce the Police State that it is itself becoming.

The government know that the war can never be won, but that isn't actually the point of the war.

Re: Time to end the war on drugs

#209

Post by shaggyfrog »

_gd3l wrote: post #140
paulhauggis wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I agree wholeheartedly. Viewing drug usage as a medical problem and funding free treatment seems to be a no brainer. That pesky problem seems to go back to Congress." How is drug usage a "medical" problem? It's a personal choice. Most addicts aren't born addicted and they make the choice to pick up that first joint. I don't want to make it easier to be a drug addict in this country. Especially at my expense.

> How is drug usage a "medical" problem? Because it's the ingestion of mind-altering substances to achieve a certain goal. Most often this goal is inebriation for entertainment purposes, some times (especially in indigenous cultures) it's a spiritual goal. > It's a personal choice. Sure, many times it is. But I think more often than you'd realize it's less of a choice and more of a predisposition. I mean, if some peo…

> They've got cocaine, saliva

I'm not sure drug dealers are really getting a lot of demand for saliva. At least, I hope not. I mean, gross, right.

Re: Time to end the war on drugs

#210

Post by tomwalker »

da_dude4242 wrote: post #204
tomwalker wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is a paper http://www.bmj.com/content/331/7529/1352 "A total of 1 486 800 prescriptions for methadone were issued in 2003" and "A total of 1 486 800 prescriptions for methadone were issued in 2003" These are both methadone substitutes. I have done time in community psychiatry and addiction psychiatry. My best friend is a psychiatrist that spends a lot of time with drug addicts. I have seen the results, and the H…

>I have done time in community psychiatry and addiction psychiatry. I'm not arguing against the dangers of drugs. My point is if your only interaction with drug users is through people who have hit rock bottom then you are operating under a selection bias. >I have seen the results, and the HUGE costs, with my own eyes. How many of these costs are a result of the drugs being illegal? Lack of access to clean needles an…

In Scotland they have access to needles. They can pick them up for free with methadone.

Anyone on methadone needs to see a doc first to get a prescription. Ifmedical professionals are seeing the tip then it is a huge iceberg.

I did a stint of general practice in my training in a poor neighbouhood. I was doing checks on pregnant and new mothers. 50% were drug addicts, average age 16. I went on to a well of f area after. Same checks and maybe 10% were addicts. The addicts were mostly under 20.

Opiates cannot be used on a population scale safely. when someone is having renal colic, said by many to be the worst pain possible, we give morphine as it alters the brains perception of your senses that much!

Post reply on HN