After 20 years the Dwarf Fortress devs have to get used to being millionaires • Hacker News Board

Re: After 20 years the Dwarf Fortress devs have to get used to being millionaires

#211

Post by fooqux » Wed, Dec 14, 2022, 2:36 AM UTC

todfox wrote: post #200

dabeeeenster wrote: post #76

So this happened to a guy that worked for me. Loved video games, super talented front end dev. Made a horror game in Unity at evenings and weekends with his best friend. Launched it on Steam. Very low sales. But he learnt a huge amount about marketing and game design based on player feedback. Designed a second game, put all the marketing learnings into it, 48 hours after launch the biggest streamer on twitch was stre…

After four years working on my retro game nearly full time, and several launches, I still don't understand marketing enough to understand what to do differently. A lot of the advice out there is something like: "create a community" or "go join several communities" or "get to know other indie devs on Twitter". To me, this simply feels fake. I don't really participate in any online communities. I spend enough time in f…

>but what's the point of working so hard if nobody gets to enjoy it but me?

I have been struggling with this myself. Not just about programming but other creative pursuits as well. Recently it has been photography. I take pictures while knowing whatever I'm looking at has a far better picture on its wikipedia page.

I suppose we're supposed to take some sort of fulfillment in the process of creation itself? But that just goes back to the old koan of the tree falling in the woods. If I create something, but nobody ever sees it, did I create it at all? Doesn't feel like it.

Re: After 20 years the Dwarf Fortress devs have to get used to being millionaires

#212

Post by travisjungroth » Wed, Dec 14, 2022, 2:38 AM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #176

travisjungroth wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 2m each is not "Fuck you" money perhaps but it is enough to comfortably retire That is exactly what "fuck you" money means. It's not about having so much money you couldn't possibly want for anything. People will always want. It's about having enough that you're not beholden to anyone for your basic needs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJjKP8vYjpQ&ab_channel=Youtu...

Well, yes. It depends on what your requirements are. For some people ~$80K/year without benefits isn't what they're looking for to coast through life.

I recommend watching the clip if you haven't. It doesn't that you actually go an retire, it means that you can.

Re: After 20 years the Dwarf Fortress devs have to get used to being millionaires

#213

Post by zajio1am » Wed, Dec 14, 2022, 2:39 AM UTC

OkayPhysicist wrote: post #163

_carbyau_ wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. I like the idea of this game. But I'd love the idea if I could romp around in it with a friend or 15. But multiplayer is hard baked in from the start. This game will never happen. So someone else will copy what they've done and add multiplayer and get that bag.

Dwarf Fortress is basically uncopyable. Lots of games have tried: RimWorld is a good example. But they end up feeling like shallow imitations, because Dwarf Fortress has been continuously upgraded for 16 years. It's the game that every first year game dev dreams of making, with incredibly deep simulation and a myriad of mechanics to play with, before they realize that it would take decades to build. The Toady One is…

While Dwarf Fortress is incredibly deep simulation, it is also filled with bugs and UI misdesigns, that makes playing it much more frustrating than playing e.g. Rimworld. Also, the simulation is very uneven, some parts are very deep, some very shallow and some completely broken.

Re: After 20 years the Dwarf Fortress devs have to get used to being millionaires

#214

Post by cableshaft » Wed, Dec 14, 2022, 2:40 AM UTC

datalopers wrote: post #202

ajmurmann wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article also mentioned money going to other people working on the game. Unclear how's much that is though. Edit: this also touches on a grievance I have with progressive taxation and annualized retirement savings. These guys might have been in a Lowe tax bracket for many years and be back in a low tax bracket depending on how sales go over the years. The one time they hit it home they are in the top tax bracket a…

Would be nice if you earned a 401(k) credit/allowance each year so when you do hit it big you can rapidly play catch-up on the past 20 years or whatever.

> Would be nice if you earned a 401(k) credit/allowance each year so when you do hit it big you can rapidly play catch-up on the past 20 years or whatever.

No kidding. I spent most of my 20s and part of my 30s working for companies without a 401k (several small startups or video game studios). I'd love to put in more than the max now to make up for it, but have to make do with just buying stocks without the tax advantage.

I think that if you're considered 'behind' for your current salary and age, especially significantly so (I bet a bunch of people here, even those 10 years younger than me, probably have 5-10x more in their 401k than I do), there really shouldn't be much of a cap on what you can put into your 401k.

Like the cap should just be a max total you can have in there based on your age, not a cap per year.

Re: After 20 years the Dwarf Fortress devs have to get used to being millionaires

#215

Post by chaostheory » Wed, Dec 14, 2022, 2:41 AM UTC

Ygg2 wrote: post #199

unity1001 wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wait times for medical care seem surreal. Its due to the governments defunding public healthcare in order to 'strangle it then save it'. You defund it, make people say 'it doesnt work', then say that "We need to privatize it." Its de facto privatization method used since Reagan/Thatcher. Same method is being used in any country that ends up with a 'privatizing' government.

No, it isn't. Public health is just difficult to fund. Especially on a shrinking population.

This is the same conclusion I came to. Many Canadians are now against immigration due to their housing crisis. What they don’t realize is that Canada has been hit with a demographic bomb in the 1970s that other countries are now only starting to experience. Ie without immigration, the retired elderly will soon outnumber working age adults who contribute to the economy and tax revenue

They only have two choices now:

* increase or keep immigration at the same rate

* decrease or eliminate benefits like socialized healthcare and social security

Re: After 20 years the Dwarf Fortress devs have to get used to being millionaires

#216

Post by dleslie » Wed, Dec 14, 2022, 2:43 AM UTC

htag wrote: post #201

brundolf wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The flipside is that it's a lottery. Steam is overflowing with new indie games every day, and many very good ones die in obscurity. You really have to get lucky and go viral But yeah, the entry fee for that lottery is at a historic low, which is still great (especially for hobby devs who don't care about the rest!)

Is it a straight lottery (random chance), or does marketing play a role along with the game itself?

It's all about getting picked up by an influencer of some kind, or going for the long haul with social connectivity.

Re: After 20 years the Dwarf Fortress devs have to get used to being millionaires

#217

Post by todfox » Wed, Dec 14, 2022, 2:43 AM UTC

fuzzzerd wrote: post #205

todfox wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After four years working on my retro game nearly full time, and several launches, I still don't understand marketing enough to understand what to do differently. A lot of the advice out there is something like: "create a community" or "go join several communities" or "get to know other indie devs on Twitter". To me, this simply feels fake. I don't really participate in any online communities. I spend enough time in f…

I don't have the answer, but have been seeking it for a long time myself. Heard the same advise you got, make a community, join communities, post on twitter/reddit. As you said it just feels like fake advise. As best I can tell, success in those efdorts is equal parts luck, wit, and having something unique yet relatable.

It's a chicken and egg problem. If you post, nobody will see it because nobody knows who you are. So you have to spend a long time "engaging" or "networking" with a community you didn't really want to join in the first place just to make enough of a name for yourself so that someday when you have something to say, a few people will listen.

I'm too busy making stuff and hanging out with my real friends to go be fake with people just to market to them in the future.

I guess you could try to make as many games as possible, quickly, and hope that one hits just right, and then focus on it and make it better fast.

Re: After 20 years the Dwarf Fortress devs have to get used to being millionaires

#218

Post by ghaff » Wed, Dec 14, 2022, 2:45 AM UTC

travisjungroth wrote: post #212

ghaff wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, yes. It depends on what your requirements are. For some people ~$80K/year without benefits isn't what they're looking for to coast through life.

I recommend watching the clip if you haven't. It doesn't that you actually go an retire, it means that you can .

I'm not sure how that contradicts what I wrote. It's above US median income, albeit without benefits. So, it's of course reasonable for someone to decide they don't need to work any longer with that income stream while others may feel differently.

Re: After 20 years the Dwarf Fortress devs have to get used to being millionaires

#219

Post by chaostheory » Wed, Dec 14, 2022, 2:46 AM UTC

komali2 wrote: post #194

pantalaimon wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this a global issue now? Same in Germany.

Only in countries where there are people in power who stand to benefit from privatizating healthcare so as to turn it into the dystopian hellscape like the American healthcare system. We don't have this issue in Taiwan for example. I'm sure other countries can pipe up. Actually now that I think about it the devs could relatively easily get a gold card visa and emigrate here... From what I remember of their documentar…

Taiwan has other problems that are similar to what Ukraine has faced from Russia. People would be crazy to immigrate there now and in the near future.

Re: After 20 years the Dwarf Fortress devs have to get used to being millionaires

#220

Post by adventured » Wed, Dec 14, 2022, 2:47 AM UTC

fuzzzerd wrote: post #205

todfox wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After four years working on my retro game nearly full time, and several launches, I still don't understand marketing enough to understand what to do differently. A lot of the advice out there is something like: "create a community" or "go join several communities" or "get to know other indie devs on Twitter". To me, this simply feels fake. I don't really participate in any online communities. I spend enough time in f…

I don't have the answer, but have been seeking it for a long time myself. Heard the same advise you got, make a community, join communities, post on twitter/reddit. As you said it just feels like fake advise. As best I can tell, success in those efdorts is equal parts luck, wit, and having something unique yet relatable.

> Heard the same advise you got, make a community, join communities, post on twitter/reddit. As you said it just feels like fake advise.

It feels fake to let people know what you're working on by writing about it? That's what you and the parent are de facto saying.

How else do you expect them to find you?

There is no possible way around it. You have to tell people what you're doing. Repeatedly. You have to cultivate an interest in your thing. If one can't be bothered with that bare minimum building block, well, there obviously will be no successful outcome. It's definitely not build it and they will come (they don't know it exists until you show them). Give them a reason to care, cultivate interest, and they'll show up.