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After 20 years the Dwarf Fortress devs have to get used to being millionaires

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Re: After 20 years the Dwarf Fortress devs have to get used to being millionaires

#151

Post by ghiculescu »

datalopers wrote: post #124
wintogreen74 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not how corporate income tax works though; the company pays taxes on all that sales income less expenses, and then they would likely take dividends at a preferential tax rate and pay yet some more tax. I doubt they've been carrying much of a loss over the past 20+ years to offset this.

It would take 20 years to pull it off, and tax legislation may change, but a married couple can earn next year ~$115k/yr federally tax-free ($89k long-term cap gains + $27k earned income). So that source of income would only be subject to the initial 20% corporate tax.

Can you elaborate on how this works?

Asking for a married friend…

Re: After 20 years the Dwarf Fortress devs have to get used to being millionaires

#152

Post by ajmurmann »

datalopers wrote: post #6
TrevorJ wrote: post #2

They are definitely in 'set for life if we make wise choices' territory. In another month I'm betting they will be in 'set for life even if we make foolish choices' territory. I'm really happy for them. They really stayed true to their passion and I'm happy to see them rewarded for this.

Are they? 300,000 units * $30 = $9M - 30% Steam tax = $6.3M in a single year take out federal taxes (just gonna call it 36% and ignore SFJ/MFJ), leaves them about $2M each. I'm sure they're some sort of a legal entity in WA state and will owe the b&o tax too. They deserve it absolutely but $2M each does not put them in a position of "fuck you" [1]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdfeXqHFmPI

The article also mentioned money going to other people working on the game. Unclear how's much that is though.

Edit: this also touches on a grievance I have with progressive taxation and annualized retirement savings. These guys might have been in a Lowe tax bracket for many years and be back in a low tax bracket depending on how sales go over the years. The one time they hit it home they are in the top tax bracket and can only max out tax advantages from retirement contributions for that one year. They'd be in a much better position in this regard of their income was spread out. The entire system is build assuming people earn pretty much the same year to year. Same for other self-funded founders with exits.

Re: After 20 years the Dwarf Fortress devs have to get used to being millionaires

#153

Post by spacephysics »

serverholic wrote: post #107
satvikpendem wrote: post #67

I'm happy for their success. However, I'm dismayed that it was their inability to pay for healthcare that landed them in this (albeit good) situation. It's not a situation that should be forced on citizens in a modern country, for which this particular example is a feel-good ending, but there are many more (orders of magnitude more) feel-bad endings, so to speak.

Healthcare and basic income are crucial for moving towards the next stage of civilizaiton. Like you said, I'm really glad it worked out for them but so, so many people don't get so lucky or are willing to take such a big risk. How many more dwarf fortresses could we have if we gave people the safety net to follow their dreams? Instead of worrying about basic necessities like food, shelter, and healthcare.

I agree there is a problem with high healthcare costs, and food costs especially now.

However what we saw with covid stimulus and unemployment wasn’t the “everyone’s now an artist” outcome that is suggested with UBI.

We definitely saw creatives able to express and build their visions into the world, thanks to the money and additional time.

But we also saw, and still have ongoing, many people who choose not to work [0]. Some percent of these people are suffering from substance abuse. Not to say this is purely the outcome of UBI, but I can’t imagine it helps those individuals with such proclivities for abuse.

Personally I think we should have a good UBI at the least, qualified for individuals who make under a certain amount and who are able and working, or legitimately looking for a job.

There’s a reason many trust fund kids go broke or dive into substance abuse. Sure there are examples of families who would not do this under similar circumstances, but giving out money for no work (assuming one is able to work), leads to hedonic pleasures unless the individual is purposely aware and trying to avoid such sand traps.

[0] - https://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cpseea38.htm

Re: After 20 years the Dwarf Fortress devs have to get used to being millionaires

#154

Post by DonHopkins »

bombcar wrote: post #89
datalopers wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, I didn't realize they had a publisher involved too. Yeah, this is a nice payday but it's just a start before it's life-changing for these two hackers. Let's see another 300k in sales!

People who want to support Tarn and Zach but don't want to buy the game can "donate" directly: http://www.bay12games.com/support.html

Or who thought they deserve more than their game cost! I just sent them $100 on top of the $30 I spent on the game.

Re: After 20 years the Dwarf Fortress devs have to get used to being millionaires

#155

Post by rjbwork »

pantalaimon wrote: post #150
chaostheory wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canada, like the US, has its own health care crisis. Wait times for medical care seem surreal. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/amp/canada/british-columbia/... https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/ottawa-paramedics-...

Is this a global issue now? Same in Germany.

In the name of profit and efficiency, all slack as been wrung out of our healthcare systems. Systems with no slack are brittle and prone to failure under stressors.

As for stressors...gestures broadly.

Re: After 20 years the Dwarf Fortress devs have to get used to being millionaires

#156

Post by sb8244 »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #145
theptip wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$2m in the bank is enough to easily draw $100k/yr from interest, which fits the GP’s “set for life if we make wise choices” IMO. That is way above median income in wealthy countries. Assuming you don’t try to live in SF!

LOL. Who is getting 5% risk free interest rate on USD? No one. I guess 1% after taxes is a more reasonable expected return. Remember that interest rates on retail deposits were pretty much zero for last 10 years. So, 20K USD per year. But if they can keep it up for next 5 years, then yeah, pretty much can retire on 1% interest rate forever.

Getting 4% right now at a normal bank (no high rate shenanigans)

I bet I'll see 5% within next 2 months. Obviously interest rate changes drastically over time.

Re: After 20 years the Dwarf Fortress devs have to get used to being millionaires

#157

Post by User23 »

I’ve played for about two hours over the last decade. So playing the game hasn’t given me all that much pleasure. But I got considerably more pleasure reading Let’s Plays, so I dropped the 30bux on general principle. Congratulations to them.

Re: After 20 years the Dwarf Fortress devs have to get used to being millionaires

#158

Post by justinlloyd »

mosseater wrote: post #128
fire wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are still in contact with the guy, could you ask him what the marketing learning actually were? Everyone has their own take on marketing and it's honestly really difficult to get the concept with most posts about it being so fluffy. I'd honestly love some cliff notes or a bulleted list from someone who has actually succeeded, especially if they ( like me ) had no marketing experience beforehand.

I've read on the /r/gamedev subreddit of people succeeding with even just doing cold-call emails to popular twitch streamers. Someone recently posted a breakdown of how many streamers played their game after he sent out emails, and he seemed to get around 5% turnaround. There's a guide that was posted to this subreddit a while ago too, that gives what you are looking for I think. https://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/comm…

I was playing Diablo 3 one evening (I use my real name), and the guy who I was grouped with was streaming on Twitch. Reasonably big name streamer. He looked up my name, found my personal resume website, played the small game on there. His viewers play the game. It is just some super simple stupid little space invaders game. Next day I wake up to several hundred emails in my inbox from various people just randomly talking about game dev and software development. Several trolls of course. Couple of "are you interested in a job?" pings. An interesting phenomenon.

Re: After 20 years the Dwarf Fortress devs have to get used to being millionaires

#159

Post by OkayPhysicist »

darkteflon wrote: post #105

I’ve often marvelled at these guys and their approach: making one game into your life’s work. Rimworld is perhaps another example of continuously added depth/complexity (although perhaps too soon to call that Tynan’s “life’s work”). Perhaps it’s something peculiar to this genre - so-called management sims. It seems to me a phenomenon that - while perhaps not unique in art - is both rare and very well suited to this m…

I'd wager it's because of the step back the player takes from the actual world. Like, Dwarf Fortress adventure mode exists, but it gets tedious. Carefully deciding which molar of your opponent to grab while grappling isn't the most engaging gameplay. But when you take a step back, and are making general instructions to your dwarves like "Go fight these goblins", the added complexity makes for some very memorable moments.

Combine that with a gameplay loop that basically demands a sprawling amount of new things to do (since the dwarves basically handle themselves in the steady state), and you've got a recipe for some truly expansive games.

Plus every modern game in the genre is directly inspired by Dwarf Fortress, who is made by someone who really seems like he just wanted a way to get people interested in his high fantasy world simulator.

Re: After 20 years the Dwarf Fortress devs have to get used to being millionaires

#160

Post by DonHopkins »

eadmund wrote: post #4
TrevorJ wrote: post #2

They are definitely in 'set for life if we make wise choices' territory. In another month I'm betting they will be in 'set for life even if we make foolish choices' territory. I'm really happy for them. They really stayed true to their passion and I'm happy to see them rewarded for this.

> In another month I'm betting they will be in 'set for life even if we make foolish choices' territory. I hope so, but it is amazing how quickly one can burn through money by making foolish choices. Or just being unlucky. I can’t be the only one who remembers esr being worth tens of millions on paper, then losing basically all of it.

It wasn't bad luck, it was bad karma. ESR earned so much bad karma by being such a terrible racist jackass that he deserved to lose it all.
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