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The Verse Programming Language [pdf]

simon.peytonjones.org

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Re: The Verse Programming Language [pdf]

#361

Post by [deleted] »

TuringTest wrote: post #290
bmitc wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I see using the choice syntax as PROLOG-esque, rather than Python-esque. I didn’t think otherwise. Many functional languages have comprehension syntax, and I prefer declarative programming. > When using this pattern, it's clearer to be able to express the space with the shortest syntax rather than the verbose one. How is x or x more verbose than x := (1|2|3) ? Also, the first and especially second are basically ide…

True, those are not more verbose, but are merely list enumerations, not comprehension, which bundles multiple generators and tests within the same structure, e.g.: [(x, y) for x in [1, 3, 5] for y in [2, 7, 8] if x It's a single monolithic expression that builds the list. The choice syntax however represents each generator and each test as separate expressions, which may even be part of different functions. This seem…

[deleted]

Re: The Verse Programming Language [pdf]

#362

Post by michaelcampbell »

bmitc wrote: post #313
vrotaru wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

`fst` and `snd` possess a symmetry which `first` / `second` lack Personally I've got used to them like in no time

Why is symmetry in word length needed?

Why is anything "needed"? It's all a continuum of convenience, readability, familiarity, prior art, and preference.

That you fall somewhere differently on any or all of those spectrums than the author is fine.

Re: The Verse Programming Language [pdf]

#363

Post by morelisp »

cottenio wrote: post #329
TinkersW wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweeney commented on twitter "The aim is a transactional programming model with no visible networking or multithreading: you write normal code, and the system distributes the simulation across cores, servers, and servers by running updates speculatively, then committing or aborting them" Seems vaguely similiar to how Unreal networking already works, but I guess more automatic. Some parts of the game will perhaps have…

There comes a point in any massively scaling networking project, and here I speak with some experience, when you realize that your goal, while admirable, has no bearing on the lessons learned over the last few decades of MMO development. I fear this is a handwave. What I mean by that is that its addressing the wrong problem for the Metaverse. Being able to implement an ECS model, for instance, where different platfor…

Also speaking as someone with experience in MMO development: This is fucking wild to describe as a handwave, you think Epic / Tim Sweeney have the wrong end of the stick regarding distributed execution because... the AIs will solve it for us in the next few years?

> By the time Verse is built up enough and has enough market penetration...

Verse will already have a dominant market position the minute you can do something in Fortnite with it.

I'm much more interested to know what the top LSL programmers or Minecraft modders think of it, than the team working on Guild Wars 2 or whatever. That's who it's relevant for.

Re: The Verse Programming Language [pdf]

#365

Post by ParetoOptimal »

charcircuit wrote: post #107
ParetoOptimal wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't a language designed for current language users not bring much new to the table and mostly focus on familiarity and interop with existing la.guages?

When you want to make a mainstream language you will have better luck by focusing on bringing value to the users of the language over focusing on creating something novel.

But isn't the point here that the largest value is in a novel space requiring novel solutions?

Re: The Verse Programming Language [pdf]

#366

Post by bmitc »

xigoi wrote: post #359
bmitc wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is symmetry in word length needed?

Alignment. x = fst(some complex expression) y = snd(some complex expression)

The need for such alignment denotes a further deficiency in the language if it lacks pattern matching.

    (x, y) = some complex expression
And I’m not for sure if this alignment overrides the readability aspect. Verify few languages have alignment in mind, and even less formatters do, so it isn’t clear why alignment is so strongly needed in this very particular case. And what about third and fourth?

Re: The Verse Programming Language [pdf]

#367

Post by morelisp »

bmitc wrote: post #224
mrkeen wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I honestly fail to see what properties of the language has anything to do with the metaverse, or millions of devs, etc... They're pushing transactions straight from the beginning, which I think is the sanest way for multiple actors to all try to interact with the same world. And for the compiler to stay sane in dealing with transactions, it's necessary to mark effects, which is also in the slides. The inclusion of…

What are transactions in this context? Message passing?

Classic multiplayer world problem - I want to give you 10 monies for your rare sword. At no point, from any view should I have 10 monies and the sword, nor you the sword and 10 monies, and especially bad is if neither of us have either. Also, it shouldn't be possible for someone to lure a goblin over to stab me forcing me to cancel the trade because I died and warped back home. Also it needs to happen within like 200ms because otherwise people will leave for a less laggy game.

Re: The Verse Programming Language [pdf]

#368

Post by benji-york »

qayxc wrote: post #299
benji-york wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't quite follow the second paragraph. You say > The problem with SQL's NULL are its properties (comparison and arithmetic in particular) [...] Which I follow, then you say that those unfortunate properties don't apply and give a counterexample (I think it is intended as a counterexample) of > 42 + false? === false? But that seems to be the same as SQL's NULL: benji=# \pset null NULL Null display is "NULL". benji…

The problem with SQL is that this behaviour is inconsistent when it comes to NULL values. Consider a column with values (10, 20, NULL, 30). In SQL the AVG() function would return 20, i.e. ignoring the NULL value entirely. COUNT(*) on a table, however, would happily include NULL values, whereas COUNT(col_name) wouldn't. The behaviour is all over the place, especially when different dialects and settings are considered…

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I appreciate it.

Re: The Verse Programming Language [pdf]

#369

Post by cottenio »

morelisp wrote: post #363
cottenio wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There comes a point in any massively scaling networking project, and here I speak with some experience, when you realize that your goal, while admirable, has no bearing on the lessons learned over the last few decades of MMO development. I fear this is a handwave. What I mean by that is that its addressing the wrong problem for the Metaverse. Being able to implement an ECS model, for instance, where different platfor…

Also speaking as someone with experience in MMO development: This is fucking wild to describe as a handwave, you think Epic / Tim Sweeney have the wrong end of the stick regarding distributed execution because... the AIs will solve it for us in the next few years? > By the time Verse is built up enough and has enough market penetration... Verse will already have a dominant market position the minute you can do someth…

You know, your comment made me rethink a few things.

I don't know if they have the wrong end of the stick. I'm afraid they might, because based on their presentations so far the Metaverse bit seems more tacked on than intrinsic. However, these are credentialed people well known in the field - it's hard to tell how much is exuberance re: Metaverse usage.

Regarding my comment on AI, I think it's relevant. It's not that AI will "solve all our problems", but that AI-aided design and code implementation will make learning a language like this obsolete. Transpilation will be seamless and backgroundy. So now there's a cost/benefit factor to learning a new language that was used to write a distributed execution layer for the Metaverse in a transaction-first manner, versus using tools that just "do it for us" and interact with the "product" created with Verse.

As far as Fortnite having a dominant market position once they do stuff with it, I'm not sure of that. I mean, StateScript being awesome doesn't make a dominant market position for it because of its use in Overwatch. I recognize the fundamental difference because the latter is closed and proprietary, sure, but I'm just not sure about the level of separation between Language and Product here when they're talking about the Metaverse. I look forward to learning more.

Re: The Verse Programming Language [pdf]

#370

Post by cma »

bmitc wrote: post #220
rkrzr wrote: post #26

This looks incredibly ambitious: - There are no booleans in the language! Conditionals can still succeed or fail, but failure is defined as returning zero values and success is defined as returning one or more values. - Verse uses a so-called 'lenient' evaluation strategy which is neither strict nor lazy, but somewhere in-between ("Everything is eventually evaluated, but only when it is ready") - an expression does n…

> Perhaps Verse will one day be as influential for PL design as Haskell has been. Has Haskell really been that influential though? It seems to me that MLs, Lisps, Schemes, and even Erlang have been more influential.

I think it influenced python list comprehensions.
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