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Ask HN: Why are some YC startups not posting salary ranges when law requires it?

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Re: Ask HN: Why are some YC startups not posting salary ranges when law requires it?

#181

Post by robomartin »

indymike wrote: post #78

I've been in the job board / HR Tech space for a while, and every time I see a state pass a law requiring advertising the salary range, I'm reminded of a few facts: * Showing your salary range as long as it is at market wage or higher delivers 14% more applicants. It is a good idea to show salary on job ads. * If you don't give the job board a salary range, they will use tools like salary.com or their own tools to sh…

> If you advertise a job respond to applicants quickly

A friend of mine is superbly qualified for a job posted by Apple. She applied for this job expecting a reasonably quick reply. What I mean by "superbly qualified" is that she is a recognized expert in the domain, has conducted seminars attended by hundreds of engineers and business people and, back in the day, was actually invited by Steve Jobs to come to Cupertino and help Apple engineers understand issues related to this product category.

Her application, last I checked, has gone without response for somewhere around 30 to 45 days. This has caused her to have lost her interest to work for Apple. She is now considering offers from competitors.

Ghosting can happen in many forms. Why is it that tech companies don't seem to understand how important is is to treat people with respect --customers, suppliers, candidates and employees. Once someone forms an opinion about you or your company it takes a thousand times more energy and effort to change it.

Re: Ask HN: Why are some YC startups not posting salary ranges when law requires it?

#182

Post by jcims »

mbrubeck wrote: post #140
jcims wrote: post #81

It's acceptable to me. Is there an obligation in the law to list salary range at every recruiting reference? If not, is HN now obligated to monitor every official posting for salary range? If you have a problem with the company, report the company.

> Is there an obligation in the law to list salary range at every recruiting reference? “Any advertisement for a job, promotion, or transfer opportunity that would be performed in New York City is covered by the new law. An ‘advertisement’ is a written description of an available job, promotion, or transfer opportunity that is publicized to a pool of potential applicants. Such advertisements are covered regardless of…

First, thank you for the reference.

Second, who implements this part?

"Does this new law apply to my job postings?

All employers that have four or more employees or one or more domestic workers are covered by the NYCHRL, including this new provision of the law. As with other provisions of the NYCHRL, owners and individual employers count towards the four employees. The four employees do not need to work in the same location, and they do not need to all work in New York City. As long as one of the employees works in New York City, the workplace is covered.

Employment Agencies are also covered by the new law, regardless of their size. As such, employment agencies must ensure that any job listings they promote or seek to fill comply with the new salary transparency requirements.

Temporary Help Firm Exception: The new law does not apply to temporary help firms seeking applicants to join their pool of available workers. Temporary help firms are businesses that recruit, hire, and assign their own employees to perform work or services for other organizations, to support or supplement the other organization’s workforce, or to provide assistance in special work situations. However, employers who work with temporary help firms must follow the new salary transparency law"

Re: Ask HN: Why are some YC startups not posting salary ranges when law requires it?

#183

Post by anigbrowl »

paulgb wrote: post #53

There are some comments in here that verge on assuming bad faith on the part of the companies involved, so I think it's worth pointing out that this is a new law which has been in effect for just over a month. It's been on the way for a while, so it's not “sudden”, but it’s still a new thing that people are figuring out and it’s easier to forget about if you’re in the habit of re-using old listings. (Not about OP, wh…

this is a new law which has been in effect for just over a month

So what? The idea of transparency on salaries is not a new one. Why would I want to do business with a company that won't even tell me how much they're offering for a job when asked? That just wastes people's time.

I don't care for this legalistic and disingenuous approach to business, it's an indicator that management is not going to be transparent with people who work there and is relying on information asymmetries rather than actually trying to build a team. Anyone acting like they don't know that potential hires have a strong interest in knowing what a job potentially pays is BSing you.

Re: Ask HN: Why are some YC startups not posting salary ranges when law requires it?

#185

Post by next_xibalba »

bin_bash wrote: post #124
indymike wrote: post #78

I've been in the job board / HR Tech space for a while, and every time I see a state pass a law requiring advertising the salary range, I'm reminded of a few facts: * Showing your salary range as long as it is at market wage or higher delivers 14% more applicants. It is a good idea to show salary on job ads. * If you don't give the job board a salary range, they will use tools like salary.com or their own tools to sh…

> A single day of delay in response causes 28% of candidates to become unresponsive to recruiters (this is from our company's research). It drops to 51% become unresponsive 48 hours later. I've noticed my interest in a job tends to drop consistently the longer it takes for a response. This isn't surprising at all. I don't think it's because we're fickle, it's more that right when you apply you can picture what it mig…

This, to me, is a really good signal of how well run a company is. After all, a company is merely a collection of people on whom its outcomes are entirely dependent. Thus, the single most important function a company can perform is hiring. If a company fails to recognize this or just does it incompetently, its probably a crappy company. Thus, slow responses == crappy company.

Re: Ask HN: Why are some YC startups not posting salary ranges when law requires it?

#186

Post by baby »

indymike wrote: post #78

I've been in the job board / HR Tech space for a while, and every time I see a state pass a law requiring advertising the salary range, I'm reminded of a few facts: * Showing your salary range as long as it is at market wage or higher delivers 14% more applicants. It is a good idea to show salary on job ads. * If you don't give the job board a salary range, they will use tools like salary.com or their own tools to sh…

no opinion about these laws but:

> * Showing your salary range as long as it is at market wage or higher delivers 14% more applicants. It is a good idea to show salary on job ads.

might not be what you want. You might want the best engineers who you will have to make exceptions for in their TC

Re: Ask HN: Why are some YC startups not posting salary ranges when law requires it?

#187

Post by ido »

next_xibalba wrote: post #185
bin_bash wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A single day of delay in response causes 28% of candidates to become unresponsive to recruiters (this is from our company's research). It drops to 51% become unresponsive 48 hours later. I've noticed my interest in a job tends to drop consistently the longer it takes for a response. This isn't surprising at all. I don't think it's because we're fickle, it's more that right when you apply you can picture what it mig…

This, to me, is a really good signal of how well run a company is. After all, a company is merely a collection of people on whom its outcomes are entirely dependent. Thus, the single most important function a company can perform is hiring. If a company fails to recognize this or just does it incompetently, its probably a crappy company. Thus, slow responses == crappy company.

I would postulate the single most important thing a company can do is make money. Hiring is also important though.

Re: Ask HN: Why are some YC startups not posting salary ranges when law requires it?

#188

Post by anigbrowl »

kuboble wrote: post #127
indymike wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There are some comments in here that verge on assuming bad faith on the part of the companies involved Not disclosing pay is illegal in three states in the US, and has the practical effect of reducing the number of applicants to the advertised job by 14%, so it's self-harming for the employer anyway. Bonus: a lot of job boards will just plug an "estimated salary" in for you to max their CTR and revenue on syndicatio…

Are the companies indeed inflicting self harm? They might get less applications that way, but posting salary ranges for new employees has other downsides - e.g. it might tilt existing employees. Another downside is that it's easy to scrap and collect this data and companies might not like candidates or employees easily accessing historical data. Sharing salary range basically reduces the knowledge advantage of a comp…

reduces the knowledge advantage of a company

Defaulting to an adversarial relationship with its own staff is not the sign of a good company.

Re: Ask HN: Why are some YC startups not posting salary ranges when law requires it?

#189

Post by wintogreen74 »

indymike wrote: post #105
yamtaddle wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> * If you advertise a job respond to applicants quickly - as in within minutes of the application. A single day of delay in response causes 28% of candidates to become unresponsive to recruiters (this is from our company's research). It drops to 51% become unresponsive 48 hours later. My experience with being hired at non-FAANG places over a career of more than two decades is that I'm usually through a process and h…

I routinely hire developers in 24 hours from initial contact. It's fun watching them get random recruiter calls two or three weeks later. "I'm not interested, I STARTED my new job three weeks ago. No, I'm not willing to leave for that. Have a nice day." Except the "Have a nice day" part is usually less friendly and polite.

How can either side get an accurate assessment of the other in such a short time? I was hired by my current employer in less than 2 weeks from initial conversation and it was a bit of a smell that they weren't more thorough. Now I'm a hiring manager and am a little concerned with what I feel are "loose" practices that let too many marginal candidates through because otherwise "it's too hard to source talent".

For me a clear understanding of the process steps and how long it will take start to finish is more important than absolute speed. Example: "These are the N phases, we aim to be completed in X days/weeks and you will always know what's next and when it will occur." My last employeer was really good at communicating promptly with those that were not progressing, which is also very important.

I think we should all agree that limbo/ghosting is totally unacceptable and these companies (or people) should be called out by name.

Re: Ask HN: Why are some YC startups not posting salary ranges when law requires it?

#190

Post by zacharybk »

Osiris wrote: post #61
paulgb wrote: post #53

There are some comments in here that verge on assuming bad faith on the part of the companies involved, so I think it's worth pointing out that this is a new law which has been in effect for just over a month. It's been on the way for a while, so it's not “sudden”, but it’s still a new thing that people are figuring out and it’s easier to forget about if you’re in the habit of re-using old listings. (Not about OP, wh…

This has been law in Colorado for 2 years and applies to anyone offering jobs to any Colorado resident including remote jobs. The law passed in 2019 and went into effect Jan 1, 2021.

Different companies clearly have different legal teams giving differing advice. I found this one fascinating:

“If you are a Colorado or New York City resident and this role is a remote role, you can receive additional information about the compensation and benefits for this role, which we will provide upon request. Requests can be submitted here.“

link: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLScOlYgPtpG56uqO0O9j...

When I submitted my information I did not hear back, which does feel like a blatant violation of the law(s)

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