Washington faltered as fentanyl gripped America • Hacker News Board

Re: Washington faltered as fentanyl gripped America

#101

Post by ajross » Tue, Dec 13, 2022, 2:36 PM UTC

jdmtheNth wrote: post #86

There needs to be more focus on why people need drugs to cope, rather than whether or not to legalize them.

Opium/oid abuse and dependency has a thousand year history. You aren't going to fix this with This One Psychology Trick, and trying to imagine that by projecting your priors onto the problem is just going to lead you into a conspiracy theory.

Fentanyl is notable because it's more concentrated and cheaper, so there's more available and it's easier to dangerously overdose. But the "why" behind the market for it hasn't changed in hundreds of years.

Re: Washington faltered as fentanyl gripped America

#102

Post by ajross » Tue, Dec 13, 2022, 2:38 PM UTC

snvzz wrote: post #99

adrr wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Opiates used to be unregulated in the US and the US had an opiate addiction issue. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/inside-story-americas...

And yet, it never got as bad as right now. Congrats, prohibition has made the situation worse.

I don't know that that follows. Fentanyl's cost to the end user is like 100x cheaper than 19th century opium (or more? I can't find data but that's probably about right). Don't market economics explain the issue better than regulatory decisions?

Re: Washington faltered as fentanyl gripped America

#103

Post by supergeek133 » Tue, Dec 13, 2022, 2:38 PM UTC

the__alchemist wrote: post #98

Getting a needle inserted for blood draw sucks. Getting one of the fatter ones that can inject things into a vein hurts! How good could the high be that it's worth that, if you're not suffering from a serious injury or disease that would warrant painkillers?

Fentanyl is insanely powerful, you can get it in "lollipops" and it can be delivered nasally.

Source: My mother used fentanyl for many many years.

Re: Washington faltered as fentanyl gripped America

#104

Post by zoklet-enjoyer » Tue, Dec 13, 2022, 2:40 PM UTC

jpm_sd wrote: post #8

Opium Wars Round 3 is getting pretty intense. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_Wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fentanyl https://www.brookings.edu/research/china-and-synthetic-drugs...

I've been saying this since 2010 but most people thought I was talking about some bullshit conspiracy theory

Re: Washington faltered as fentanyl gripped America

#105

Post by stephen_g » Tue, Dec 13, 2022, 2:40 PM UTC

Joker_vD wrote: post #54

vorpalhex wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you feel that would lead to less deaths given that the deaths from fent are often (but not always) from an intentional dose of fent? The research here also does not support broad legalization: + https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24456133/ + https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2019/06/medical-marij... Of special note is that opiod deaths increased as legal prescribed opiods were given more freely.

One marvels as to why e.g. Russia or China don't covertly push funds and efforts into drug legalization in the US if that would widely harm its population and weaken it as a whole. But to the best of my knowledge, they apparently don't, so this is a (somewhat weak) argument in favour of legalization.

Why do you think “Russia or China” would actually care in any way to want to harm random Americans?

Re: Washington faltered as fentanyl gripped America

#106

Post by overthemoon » Tue, Dec 13, 2022, 2:42 PM UTC

jack_pp wrote: post #46

This would be solved if drugs were decriminalized and testing kits were very easy to use and come by but I guess a lot more people have to die before society as a whole acquires common sense

People keep saying this. I don't get it. What's the proposed cause/effect of decriminalization on drug overdoses specifically? Testing kits, sure. And I see the argument for much softer sentences for small amounts with regards to reducing the egregious number of people in the prison system, although that is also a tangential issue to overdoses.

Re: Washington faltered as fentanyl gripped America

#107

Post by AlgorithmicTime » Tue, Dec 13, 2022, 2:43 PM UTC

323 wrote: post #35

MonkeyMalarky wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that would upset the teetotalers and puritans. Also if drugs were legal, how would one look down on poor people and blame them for their situation in life on moral failings like addiction?

> But that would upset the teetotalers and puritans. It's easy to cater to them. In the packet that legalizes all drugs you also remove all gun control laws. So you make all drugs and all guns legal in all circumstances and at all times, just like it should be in a free country. The state should not control what you put in your mouth or veins or what you carry in your pocket.

No post body was provided.

Re: Washington faltered as fentanyl gripped America

#108

Post by jeffal » Tue, Dec 13, 2022, 2:43 PM UTC

sklargh wrote: post #80

Operational question, why do the DEA and ATF exist? It seems that they are A. Failures* and B. Lack any distinctive law enforcement mission. Couldn't we just roll their missions up into the FBI? Perhaps the Secret Service as well? This feels far more efficient than several fragmented failures occurring simultaneously. *Eyeballing success by the number of murders with illegal firearms and drug deaths.

There are articles on how/why the DEA knew about and allowed the prescription opioid epidemic to happen.

Re: Washington faltered as fentanyl gripped America

#109

Post by umeshunni » Tue, Dec 13, 2022, 2:45 PM UTC

jack_pp wrote: post #76

thepasswordis wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parts of San Francisco have implemented these exact policies and they have made the problems a LOT worse.

Unfortunately I don't know the exact specifics of the situation there as I don't live in the US. I know there's a large homeless problem but not the details. Maybe the policies I mentioned also need other policies to balance them out, policies like you're not allowed to camp on the street and you're not allowed to steal, at all. Maybe don't allow people to drive under the influence of any drug that's not a stimulant,…

Yeah, everything you laid out is perfectly logical and what they should be doing, but unfortunately, progressive politics in the US philosophically opposed to enforcing camping and theft laws. E.g., in San Francisco, it’s legal to steal under $900.

Re: Washington faltered as fentanyl gripped America

#110

Post by banannaise » Tue, Dec 13, 2022, 2:47 PM UTC

HideousKojima wrote: post #91

bloopernova wrote: post #82

Why are people using Fentanyl? Maybe tackle that instead of further marginalizing people who use it? Are they using it to escape the grinding anxiety and desperation of their shitty lives? Are they using it instead of alcohol, again as escapism from reality? Is this use any different from how people used alcohol in past decades? I guess the point I'm poorly trying to make is that people aren't suddenly different to t…

>Why are people using Fentanyl? Maybe tackle that instead of further marginalizing people who use it? As far as the common narrative I've seen in the media goes, it's not that they are actively seeking out fentanyl to use (generally). It's that they are seeking out opioids in general, and a lot of unscrupulous distributors and dealers are cutting their product with fentanyl to make it more potent, or something to tha…

It has become such a problem that many fentanyl sources now dye it bright colors, so it can't be covertly cut into an otherwise white drug.

Of course, American authorities immediately turned that into a "Fentanyl candy!" panic.