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Why hasn’t technology disrupted higher education already?

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Re: Why hasn’t technology disrupted higher education already?

#101
post #73
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it'd be a YT engineer who thinks inductively-coupled 120V AC into an extremely low-impedance circuit over a few tens of feet would cause a problem, not an actual EE.

Similarly with 60Hz hum on phone lines in any recent decade. If the phone doesn’t have a filter, which it probably does, you can notch the hum for $20. OP is verysmart. The contractors didn’t know because it doesn’t impact anyone anymore.

I've heard of enough house phones with a hum. At the time I read everything I could find on low voltage wiring, and they recommended what I did. My phone lines are quiet. I also used cat5e for the phone lines and ethernet, and have no trouble with the 100Mb wires and gig equipment. (Cat6 wasn't available at the time.)

(The electrician tried to run cat3 or some other cheap garbage wire. He also tried to run RG59 coax, which I ripped out and replaced with RG6 quad shielded wire.)

> recent decade

This was in 1999. The wiring has survived several upgrades in digital equipment and bandwidth without change.

> which it probably does

Then it evidently is a problem, as otherwise the filter wouldn't be necessary. Besides, my phone was built in the 1950s.

P.S. I'm not an EE. I'm an ME.

Re: Why hasn’t technology disrupted higher education already?

#102
post #51

The answer to "why hasn't technology disrupted [XYZ]" is always that the problems in XYZ weren't technology related in the first place. The education system, voting/politics, real estate, healthcare... the list goes on. You cannot automate away problems when there are humans and human emotions/motivations/conflicts in the way. Colleges and college degrees are first and foremost a social signal. There is no tech subst…

> The answer to "why hasn't technology disrupted [XYZ]" is always that the problems in XYZ weren't technology related in the first place.

I wonder why one would want to "disrupt* [XYZ] in general, and education in particular. Disruption seems to me to almost always being a net negative for everyone except the upstarts who displaced the incumbents by literally breaking their market - particularly, the customers end up holding the short end of the stick.

> Ultimately technology won't "fix" the higher education system, but simply make it less relevant in the practical world.

That is how technology works, which is why I don't like the whole "you can't fix a social problem with technology" line. You absolutely can. It's usually the only way you can fix it. And most of the time, the fix doesn't address the problem directly, just makes it go away by restructuring incentives that lead to it in the first place.

Thus, my belief is that the answer to "why hasn't technology disrupted [XYZ]" is that the technology the asker has in mind barks up the wrong tree. The [XYZ] in question isn't a fixed artifact you can sculpt, but an equilibrium of economic and social incentives. It's dynamically maintained, so pushing directly against it means you'll be pushed back at. You can make a small dent somewhere, then you run out of money or will, and status quo resumes.

EDIT:

Or, if you have access to billions of dollars of VC money, you can try and do it the hard way, to detonate a metaphorical nuke in a valley to reshape it completely. Maybe you'll succeed, but more likely, you'll just starve every established company/institution to death, and then still run out of money, leaving just a completely broken [XYZ]. See my previous point about disruption not being all that positive. It's what's currently happening in food delivery and private transportation, as restaurants and taxi companies are being outcompeted by unsustainable corporations operating at a loss.

Re: Why hasn’t technology disrupted higher education already?

#103
I hoped that by "disrupted higher education" the author meant something at least as radical as what this decades-old essay proposes.

https://citejournal.org/volume-2/issue-3-02/seminal-articles...

Alas, I came away disappointed. Instead of aiming for a quantum leap, the author only intends to automate the existing processes.

Re: Why hasn’t technology disrupted higher education already?

#104
post #51

The answer to "why hasn't technology disrupted [XYZ]" is always that the problems in XYZ weren't technology related in the first place. The education system, voting/politics, real estate, healthcare... the list goes on. You cannot automate away problems when there are humans and human emotions/motivations/conflicts in the way. Colleges and college degrees are first and foremost a social signal. There is no tech subst…

I'd go further and say most major modern day problems, of which ludicrous education expenses are one of the best examples, are problems that come from perverse monetization incentives and increasing disconnect between needs, effort and reward stemming from societal complexity and abstraction, and that technology is likely to make a number of those problems worse.

We've figured out how to increase physical goods and enable efficient use of scarce resources that can't be infinitely replicated incredibly well, despite a huge range of different emotions, motivations, and conflicts about how those physical resources should be allocated. I'd argue that's mostly because signals related to physical goods are relatively clear, direct, and measurable.

Things like "knowledge" and "skill training" aren't as clear, direct, and measurable, and when you walk up the hierarchy of abstraction, it's a lot more fuzzy and difficult to measure what you're actually getting as a consumer, what you're delivering as a producer, and what the source of problems are, especially if there's a major time delay and variability for payoff. That's the case with modern education, and also applies to "investment payoff in quality and effectiveness of health care", "investment payoff in quality and effectiveness of living space", "investment payoff in quality and effectiveness of public outreach", etc. It makes proper negotiation very difficult and leaves a lot of room for confusion and abuse.

One possible solution to this, which seems impossible/idk how this would work in the modern era, is to try to return to a system where a whole town would work more like a single unit so as to try to reduce some of the sprawl and complexity. Earlier in America there'd be a town known for making shoes, a town known for making lightbulbs, a town known for making steel, etc. There'd be a rallying, measurable "physical thing" the town could help use to calibrate whether it's healthy/allocating resources correctly. If the town isn't working as a cohesive unit, the central "thing", like lightbulbs, would get measurably worse. High school education is bad? Fewer competent lightbulb workers, fewer lightbulbs produced, clear signal. Healthcare isn't working? More sick days, lower moral, fewer lightbulbs produced, clear signal. Everyone in the town would have a better map of the intricacies of what's working and not working in that smaller system than they could possibly have in a global/gargantuan system, and they'd have a relatively objective measuring stick to determine whether they're working effectively as a unit.

Re: Why hasn’t technology disrupted higher education already?

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has been possible for a century to self-study to the equivalent of a bachelor's degree using textbooks but it is… With the exception of a small percent of the population this isn’t true. Most people don’t have the ability, patience, wherewithal to self study a topic in depth. HN comments are littered with examples of educated people in one area making foolish comments in other areas with those people thinking they…

In social science and humanities, I agree with you that self studying is an uphill battle. You'll just sound naive unless (1) you've made a herculean effort in studying, and (2) you've thought very critically on your own about how you will assimilate and where you will fit into the existing space of thought. There are no definitively correct opinions in these fields but plenty of influential people have theories. My…

[deleted]

Re: Why hasn’t technology disrupted higher education already?

#106
post #51

The answer to "why hasn't technology disrupted [XYZ]" is always that the problems in XYZ weren't technology related in the first place. The education system, voting/politics, real estate, healthcare... the list goes on. You cannot automate away problems when there are humans and human emotions/motivations/conflicts in the way. Colleges and college degrees are first and foremost a social signal. There is no tech subst…

> The answer to "why hasn't technology disrupted [XYZ]" is always that the problems in XYZ weren't technology related in the first place. I wonder why one would want to "disrupt* [XYZ] in general, and education in particular. Disruption seems to me to almost always being a net negative for everyone except the upstarts who displaced the incumbents by literally breaking their market - particularly, the customers end up…

> Disruption seems to me to almost always being a net negative for everyone except the upstarts who displaced the incumbents by literally breaking their market - particularly, the customers end up holding the short end of the stick.

There's plenty of "customers" (students) who wind up holding the short end of the current stick, too. People who, say, wind up $50,000 in debt, and still didn't manage to get a degree. Or people who wind up $50,000 in debt and graduate, but with a degree that isn't worth that. Or even people who get a worthwhile degree, but still wind up $50,000 in debt.

> That is how technology works, which is why I don't like the whole "you can't fix a social problem with technology" line. You absolutely can. It's usually the only way you can fix it.

Yes and no. You can maybe stop your gullible grandmother from getting so many scam phone calls with SHAKEN/STIR. You can't stop her next-door neighbor from pulling her into a multi-level marketing deal, though. SHAKEN/STIR may stop (most) scam phone calls, but it doesn't fix the gullibility at all.

Re: Why hasn’t technology disrupted higher education already?

#107
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely agree. And because of this, any fantasies from tech of easily disrupting education look rather naive … almost like they’re still in the mindset of the student trying to prove their intelligence. It seems then that the technical challenge is certification/assessment. Here, AI could play a role. If a machine can interactively and dynamically have a “conversation” with a person, that is randomised/unique and…

Assessment is a minor technical challenge, but finding people to assess might be a bigger challenge. Outside of possibly a small handful of fields (computer programming), we don't know how many people can actually learn an academic subject in any depth on their own. Everything is speculation unless that number can be nailed down. A more likely use of AI would be to expand the candidate pool by changing the nature of…

> Outside of possibly a small handful of fields (computer programming), we don't know how many people can actually learn an academic subject in any depth on their own.

I'm not sure solitary self-learning is the only type of learning consistent with a disrupting higher education. If technology is to drive change here, I'd argue that a plurality of competing education/learning resources or services from which an individual can cater their choices to their own needs is what would be aimed for (or at least likely).

> I wouldn't hire someone based on their credentials alone. On the other hand, a person who gets through the "weeder" courses in engineering or the physical sciences at the state university, but is outright faking it, would be a black swan event, not worth planning for.

I agree. However, to my point about cultural perception, which I believe plays a large role in the state of higher education, what happens when higher education if universally seen as mostly "weeding"? Are the costs, inconveniences, cultural hegemonies/hangups/snobberies desirable and worth it?

Re: Why hasn’t technology disrupted higher education already?

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most of the capturable value in education is signal of acquired knowledge and other factors. IMO, this is an extreme bias in the Ed VC community and explains how they managed to flush so much cash down the toilet. In no particular order: 1. Tech focus. Most SWEs do not need a CS or even SE degree, and even if you do need that knowledge it really can be learned by hacking at things alone in a room. This ranges betwe…

You are both right, honestly. Much of the value of higher education as it is structured is the credentialing and the networking. Everyone knows what a bachelors is, a master’s is, a doctorate is. This is important. It means something. However you are also right that education works in person for a lot of people and there are a lot of values there. Community colleges are an under utilized resource to learn. Making mon…

> Everyone knows what a bachelors is, a master’s is, a doctorate is. This is important. It means something.

A bachelor's is a glorified dropout. A master's is the primary academic degree. A doctorate is more like a title rather than a degree, and if you do it full-time early in your career, it signifies that you can advance from junior to intermediate positions.

Or they could mean something else, depending on which traditions you are used to.

Re: Why hasn’t technology disrupted higher education already?

#109

I've worked in the ed-tech space for years and am good friends with many of the early pioneers. Most of the capturable value in education is signal of acquired knowledge and other factors. I'll address the knowledge signaling first. It has been possible for a century to self-study to the equivalent of a bachelor's degree using textbooks but it is very difficult to verify in a reasonable amount of time whether someone…

> Most of the capturable value in education is signal of acquired knowledge and other factors. IMO, this is an extreme bias in the Ed VC community and explains how they managed to flush so much cash down the toilet. In no particular order: 1. Tech focus. Most SWEs do not need a CS or even SE degree, and even if you do need that knowledge it really can be learned by hacking at things alone in a room. This ranges betwe…

As an aside, what if the “administrative apparatus” is as important as the academics? In SaaS companies, are sys admins and security engineers less important than the product developers? How important are the networking staff or the staff that handle backups? In higher ed, the administrative apparatus includes a myriad of critical functions and basic infrastructure such as advising, career services, mental health counseling, the registrar (course registration, transcripts), food services, the dormitories, building maintenance, cleaning services, IT, campus police, and on and on. Large universities are basically small cities.

Re: Why hasn’t technology disrupted higher education already?

#110

From what I see technology has definitely disrupted higher education. Textbooks, worksheets, and report cards are being replaced by Khan Academy, MyLab, Canvas. Teachers are doing less teaching and delegating more tasks to these services: assigning online modules, quizzes, and resources to help students (and this isn't necessarily a bad thing, as some of these online modules are really good). I predict that very soon…

I have discovered that ChatGPT is useless for advanced learning, at least at its present state of development. It's often just wrong, often incomplete - not really any more reliable than just seaching Wikipedia for answers to questions.
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