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Is dark matter’s “nightmare scenario” true?

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Re: Is dark matter’s “nightmare scenario” true?

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> see Dwarf galaxy problem, for one example I assume you're referring to the "missing satellites problem." This problem is already essentially solved: 1. Newer, more sensitive surveys have detected more Milky Way satellite galaxies. 2. Reionization and supernova feedback quench star formation in small dark matter halos, meaning that the smallest dark matter halos never form galaxies. > See the review I linked. I thin…

> This problem is already essentially solved: "Essentially solved" is at best a euphemism for "we speculate that this will solve it". Hardly conclusive. > I think we've talked about this elsewhere on HN before, and I pointed out that the paper you're linking to gets a lot of things wrong and is published in an obscure journal (presumably because it wouldn't survive peer review at any of the major journals). A random…

> "Essentially solved" is at best a euphemism for "we speculate that this will solve it". Hardly conclusive.

No, it means that it's actually been solved. If you compare the theoretically predicted number of satellite galaxies to the observed number, there's no discrepancy any more. There was a discrepancy a decade ago. There isn't any more, both because of better observations (which detect more faint galaxies) and because of better understanding of the consequences of LCDM (in particular, how reionization and supernova feedback affect star formation in low-mass galaxies).

> rampant disinterest in challenging orthodoxy

That's just not the case. There's huge interest in challenging orthodoxy. If there were a MOND-like theory that worked, there would be tons of astrophysicists who would be very excited to work on it. The problem is simply that none of the proposed MOND theories match the wide range of observations that LCDM does. LCDM is a simple theory that works remarkably well, much to the chagrin of the astrophysics community. It would be really exciting to find a problem in LCDM, and a lot of astrophysicists spend their time searching for such problems. See, for example, the excitement generated by the possible Hubble constant tension.

Re: Is dark matter’s “nightmare scenario” true?

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, you should realize that MOND in itself is not actually a theory of nature. You can't just "hack" Newton's 2nd law, because that law is a consequence of other, more fundamental principles. That's not how science works. You absolutely can write a formula that matches observations without justifying it or deriving it from first principles, ie. "hacking" Newton's second law is totally fine if it works. If an argu…

> You absolutely can write a formula that matches observations without justifying it or deriving it from first principles, ie. "hacking" Newton's second law is totally fine if it works. Physics is an interconnected whole. You cannot simply hack whatever formula you want. Newton's 2nd law is a consequence of Relativity, in the low-velocity limit. You cannot hack Newton's 2nd law without changing Relativity, which mean…

> You cannot hack Newton's 2nd law without changing Relativity

Yes, changing some aspects of relativity is what will ultimately happen. We already know relativity is technically incorrect because of its singularities.

And yes, you absolutely can hack Newton's 2nd law if it's empirically supported. It's frankly bizarre that you keep insisting that you can't do this.

> which means changing basically everything in physics

Don't be ridiculous, GR absolutely does not have an impact on "everything in physics".

> No, these are not just tests within the Solar system.

I didn't we've only tested GR within the solar system, I said GR was only well tested within the solar system. There's a big difference and you seem to have a habit of attacking strawman like this.

Re: Is dark matter’s “nightmare scenario” true?

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here. I'll come with a different objection. Everything we see in the Universe outside our own galaxy is static. We don't have enough parallax to actually perceive objects (stars) moving outside our galaxy. Ok, there's an exception, people were able to perceive the movement of one star in one of our satellite galaxies in 2012. That's about it. So, when people talk about galaxy rotation curves, that's based on a sample…

I'm sorry, but misplaced confidence like yours is the tiresome part. I think you should also apply Bayesian thinking to the whole debate as well. I'm not a cosmologist, but I have a degree in Physics. I won't be able to fill in the details, but all your objections sound pretty basic and unfounded even to my semi-amateur ears. About the cosmic distance ladder (as if parallax were the only way. I guess we don't see Ear…

I'm not that confident actually. Overall, I think it's more likely than not that dark matter exists. But I'm not 100% sure it exists either, for the reasons I listed, and more.

For example, here's a quote from the book "An Introduction to Modern Cosmology" by Andrew Little (third edition, published in 2015, page 70):

  It is just about possible given present observations that this matter can be entirely baryonic, since this is marginally consistent with Equation (9.3). However, many models based on low-mass stars and/or brown dwarfs have been excluded adn it is probably difficult to make up all of the halo with them. A popular alternative is to suggest that this density is in some new form of matter, which is non-baryonic and only interacts extremely weakly with conventional matter.
It looks like you are entirely convinced that dark matter exists beyond any reasonable doubt. Good for you. In the end, this doesn't affect your life or my life all that much.

Re: Is dark matter’s “nightmare scenario” true?

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You absolutely can write a formula that matches observations without justifying it or deriving it from first principles, ie. "hacking" Newton's second law is totally fine if it works. Physics is an interconnected whole. You cannot simply hack whatever formula you want. Newton's 2nd law is a consequence of Relativity, in the low-velocity limit. You cannot hack Newton's 2nd law without changing Relativity, which mean…

> You cannot hack Newton's 2nd law without changing Relativity Yes, changing some aspects of relativity is what will ultimately happen. We already know relativity is technically incorrect because of its singularities. And yes, you absolutely can hack Newton's 2nd law if it's empirically supported. It's frankly bizarre that you keep insisting that you can't do this. > which means changing basically everything in physi…

> I didn't we've only tested GR within the solar system

Err, I meant "I didn't say we've only tested..."

Re: Is dark matter’s “nightmare scenario” true?

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You absolutely can write a formula that matches observations without justifying it or deriving it from first principles, ie. "hacking" Newton's second law is totally fine if it works. Physics is an interconnected whole. You cannot simply hack whatever formula you want. Newton's 2nd law is a consequence of Relativity, in the low-velocity limit. You cannot hack Newton's 2nd law without changing Relativity, which mean…

> You cannot hack Newton's 2nd law without changing Relativity Yes, changing some aspects of relativity is what will ultimately happen. We already know relativity is technically incorrect because of its singularities. And yes, you absolutely can hack Newton's 2nd law if it's empirically supported. It's frankly bizarre that you keep insisting that you can't do this. > which means changing basically everything in physi…

> And yes, you absolutely can hack Newton's 2nd law if it's empirically supported. It's frankly bizarre that you keep insisting that you can't do this.

You think it's bizarre that you can't arbitrarily change one prediction in a large, densely interconnected theory? Newton's 2nd law is a consequence of a much larger theory. In order to change it, you have to change the theory that gives rise to it. That will have huge numbers of consequences, but just for Newton's 2nd law, but for pretty much everything else predicted by the theory.

> We already know relativity is technically incorrect because of its singularities.

No, we don't know this. All modern theories are relativistic. We know that General relativity (a.k.a. gravity) has to have some sort of more fundamental quantum analog, but that quantum theory will also be relativistic.

> Don't be ridiculous, GR absolutely does not have an impact on "everything in physics".

You don't need GR to get Newton's 2nd law. You only need Special Relativity. You can't "hack" Special Relativity without doing incredible damage all across physics.

> I said GR was only well tested within the solar system

Wrong. The propagation speed of gravitational waves, the inspiral of binary pulsars, strong gravitational lensing (including around directly imaged black holes), the strong equivalence principle as tested by a triple system with a pulsar, and many other tests.

Re: Is dark matter’s “nightmare scenario” true?

#176

Why do people in the comments always ignore that dark matter has way more evidence for it than just galaxy rotation curves (something very well explained in the article)? It's quite tiresome to read the same objections as if physicists somehow hadn't thought of them.

Here. I'll come with a different objection. Everything we see in the Universe outside our own galaxy is static. We don't have enough parallax to actually perceive objects (stars) moving outside our galaxy. Ok, there's an exception, people were able to perceive the movement of one star in one of our satellite galaxies in 2012. That's about it. So, when people talk about galaxy rotation curves, that's based on a sample…

I'm encouraged to reply by your reference to a (undergraduate cosmology) textbook in your more recent comment in this thread. I'd suggest borrowing (or taking advantage of a free-as-in-beer Internet copy of) the most recent edition of Binney & Tremaine's _Galactic Dynamics_, a standard textbook for graduates (and a good reference for researchers) that explores in detail how galaxy mass distributions are calculated. FWIW Binney has from time to time explored and even embraced MONDian ideas, and this is captured in his publication record.

In their textbook you'll find that galaxy rotation curve studies are spectroscopic. That is they are keenly interested in the relative redshift in the 21 cm neutral atomic hydrogen lines (among others like H2 and CO molecular lines) at the limbs of edge-on disc galaxies, and adapting that to spirals and other disc galaxies that are tilted away from edge on. [Binney 2e sec 6.1]. Practically invariably the relevant lines are relatively redshifted and relatively blueshifted at the limbs, leading to the interpretation that generically there is equatorial spin in disc galaxies.

In elliptical galaxies there is practically no equatorial spin to speak of; instead the spread of relative redshift across the face of the elliptical is interpreted as blobs of hydrogen gas moving radially, that is sinking deeper into the galaxy or rising out of the galaxy's depths. It is also useful to study a wide range of absorption lines given that the clouds are backlit by a galaxy's worth of starlight (and sometimes a quasar), in a process which grinds out surface densities.

These relative redshifts do not depend on cosmological redshift (the whole galaxy, or its whole cluster, is cosmologically redshifted identically for all practical purposes, so the opposite limbs in discs are affected similarly). It is also not sensitive to an isolated galaxy's peculiar motion within a cluster. It may matter for merging galaxies.

We can also look deeper than disc limbs and ellptical surfaces. Optical interferometry is highly sensitive in this application, and provides direct evidence of the motion of the various sources of emission and absorption lines from various gas clouds, dusts, and even starlight. The Large Binocular Telescope does some work in this area. Radio interferometry is useful for looking into the bulk motions within the more central regions of galaxies and clusters; dust obscures optical signals but millimetre signals cut through.

The investigated starlight is bulk and while the interpretation depends on assumptions about the bulk stellar chemistry of an observational target (maybe metallicity varies slightly in different parts of an elliptical which might have a history of galaxy mergers) there is in no way a dependence upon any single star and its meanderings through its galaxy. We're interested in the light generated by ~billions of stars, not the positions or momenta of single stars, mostly because we just cannot resolve the latter with current technology.

> as an outsider

You seem interested in the topic. Learning how observations are made (and the history of them) is probably not inaccessible to you given your comments here. Whether that leads you into any sort of conclusions about the structure and evolution of galaxies is up to you, but I think textbooks will be better for you than whatever ultimately led you to the stackexchange link in your comment. (I did notice however that the Ciotti preprint discussed later in your link cites Binney & Tremaine multiple times, as does the Ludwig paper in the stackexchange question).

Re: Is dark matter’s “nightmare scenario” true?

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here. I'll come with a different objection. Everything we see in the Universe outside our own galaxy is static. We don't have enough parallax to actually perceive objects (stars) moving outside our galaxy. Ok, there's an exception, people were able to perceive the movement of one star in one of our satellite galaxies in 2012. That's about it. So, when people talk about galaxy rotation curves, that's based on a sample…

I'm encouraged to reply by your reference to a (undergraduate cosmology) textbook in your more recent comment in this thread. I'd suggest borrowing (or taking advantage of a free-as-in-beer Internet copy of) the most recent edition of Binney & Tremaine's _Galactic Dynamics_, a standard textbook for graduates (and a good reference for researchers) that explores in detail how galaxy mass distributions are calculated. F…

That's a great reference. Thank you.

Re: Is dark matter’s “nightmare scenario” true?

#178
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe so. If it did exist, it would be more complex than LCDM.

Some people like Sabine Hossenfelder disagree. They think MOND could be a better fit for observations than Dark Matter.

Yep, and not any MOND, some modified version(s?) of MOND which would fit observation data at all scales.

Re: Is dark matter’s “nightmare scenario” true?

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, the comparison with light was illuminating (eh!). I was going to say something about how we don't really know how gravity works at the infinitesimal distance level as we do not have a quantum gravity theory, but IANAP.

Not sure what you mean at "infinitesimal distance level". With the caveat to follow, as one takes the wavelength of a photon towards zero (i.e., ultra high energy gammas), its contribution to the stress-energy tensor's expectation value at a point climbs. In turn the average radius of curvature around that point becomes smaller than the gamma's wavelength. When we are in that regime measuring distances by wavenumber…

[My lack of response should not be taken as lack of appreciation for your answer. It is tremendously insightful but as I said, IANAP, so a lot of it yet flies over my head.]

Re: Is dark matter’s “nightmare scenario” true?

#180
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary, if dark matter were to interact purely gravitationally, then there would be little friction to slow it down. This would prevent dark matter from clumping, which is in agreement with observations.

I don't think so. Say you had two stationary whatevers of dark matter 1 meter apart alone in the universe. At t=0 they accelerate towards each other. At some time they cross and occupy the exact same point. R becomes 0 and the force becomes infinite. They should be stuck together.

If you haven't yet, you should read raattgift's comment. It's great, and it goes in to more details than I can bother with.

But I will briefly point out the flaws with your thought experiment:

1. Point-like particles don't exist, so the force will never become infinite. In fact, this is the wrong paradigm all together -- if you're talking about two particles "colliding", then what you're really referring to is their interaction cross section (which you can think of as being their probability of interacting). Neutrino (weak interaction) scattering is incredibly rare. Gravity is much weaker still. The particles would indeed pass right through each other then oscillate back and forth (not forever, but practically so).

2. You have assumed that both particles begin with a relative velocity of 0. This is not a good assumption. In the real world, two dark matter particles would have random relative velocities according to some distribution, which means they would have angular momentum relative to each other. Again, that angular momentum can only dissipate through friction. If the particles interact solely gravitationally, then they can only lose energy via gravitational waves (i.e., extremely slowly).

You probably know that the Earth formed due to gravity. But gravity is only half the answer -- you also need something to slow the matter. On Earth, that was the electromagnetic force. Purely gravitational matter has only gravity.

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