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EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

consilium.europa.eu

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Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#871

Post by egorfine »

AlfeG wrote: post #694
tastysandwich wrote: post #506

A similar thing was attempted in Australia [1]. I just ask people to consider that even though we all have bank accounts and we take that for granted, there _are_ actually people who don't, and they're not operating a criminal enterprise. My grandparents came as refugees. My grandfather has never had a bank account. He bought a car with $50 bills once. It was so funny, they were all stuck together and the clerk had t…

There is similar law in Ukraine for quite a long time. Everyone just ignore this law.. I bought flat for cash in USD not even in local currency. Car were bought in cash in severL transactions to be below limit. Part of payments were in foreing currency. It only consumers who became affected. Less protection from law in case of fraud. By documents car price were 10 times less You pay. Meanwhile this law has not preven…

Well, let's not forget that USD is the actual true "национальная валюта" (national currency) of Ukraine. /s

On a serious note, it is almost impossible for me to declare and legalize my hard-earned money while living in Ukraine, so I hope that this EU law will not be effective, just like previous efforts were not.

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#872

Post by CraigJPerry »

imtringued wrote: post #851
CraigJPerry wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don’t need CBDC, just the existing system today. Here in the UK something like 3% of money is available as paper cash. The rest is just a row in a database. Assets are zero sum - if i sell you my car, i no longer have that asset. Money is not zero sum. It is created and destroyed as loans are made and repaid. Which kinda frazzles people’s minds when they hear it. I know it certainly did mine when i first learned.…

Assets aren't zero sum because you can produce more cars, etc. Money is zero sum because almost all money is created through debt. Sum up all money and debt and you get roughly zero excluding central bank money and cash. Money being backed by debt makes sense because it solves the "acceptance problem", that is, how do you make sure the money you have can actually buy things? Of course that means there is no limit to…

>> Assets aren't zero sum because you can produce more cars, etc.

I’d need to exchange other tangible assets (raw materials) and labour to produce the next car, I can’t just make a car, a tangible asset, by declaring a new one exists.

I’m creating more value than the raw materials worth when i assemble them into a car - maybe the idea of value creation is what you’re digging at here and I’m misunderstanding?

In either case it’s zero sum. I have some form of asset or I don’t. The value of an asset is not the price of its raw materials, it’s whatever i can convince someone it’s worth. But valuation is nothing to do with the zero sum notion of transferring ownership of assets.

>> Money is zero sum … excluding central bank money and cash

That’s a contradiction. It’s either zero sum or it’s not.

But besides that it’s missing what zero sum means. The bank issuing a loan has provided you with value in the form of the loan funds but it hasn’t exchanged any tangible asset to provide you that money. It just created an asset from thin air (your loan is its new intangible asset). They can sell your loan to a pension fund but they they won’t own that asset anymore. You won’t have to repay 2 creditors if they sell your loan.

There’s a complication when you spend your loan with a merchant banked by another bank. Your bank will now have to transfer reserves at the central bank from their account to the merchant’s bank’s account at the central bank. If they don’t have enough reserves to cover this transfer, the central bank will create reserves and lend them it at the base rate.

>> Money being backed by debt

It’s not backed by anything, it’s just a promise

>> Of course that means there is no limit to how much money there is in the system

In theory true but in practice people will stop accepting your money if you hyperinflate it

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#873

Post by peoplefromibiza »

newaccount74 wrote: post #767
acatton wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't apply to most EU countries. (Nuance: I'm not well versed in the legal system of countries part of the Bucharest Nine group, hence my "most") In most of the EU, buying land and houses is done through a notary services. Depending on the country, you either do a SEPA transfer directly to the notary, and they then send it to the other party. Or, in other countries, you do the SEPA transfer to the other party…

The funny thing is, that cash is often used for deals, because you general have to pay taxes and fees depending on the value. So someone might officially pay 20.000€ for a piece of land, pay the taxes and fees based on that price, but pay the remaining 60.000€ in cash. Obviously this is illegal, but the notaries are in on it.

That all sound nice and clean, until it's not.

Two examples from my European Country, where the practice is spread and people believe they are smart but are really not.

---

a lot of people did it here, especially in the 80s-90s. Then we started building high speed 4 lanes highways and high speed trains. You know how much the State paid for the land used to build those infrastructures?

EXACTLY!

The nominal values, so basically people got compensated for a tenth of the actual price.

The State also explained publicly that most of the land in straight flat paths, was chosen using their market value. If it's worthless, nobody will protest, on the contrary, they will be happy that someone is buying it for a price.

Some of these people were so stupid that sued the State. Of course the State won and also discovered the fraud, collecting even more money in the form of fines.

---

Recently a campaign of subsidies to improve energy efficiency of buildings was launched. The benefits are up to 110% of the total costs. Yep, 110%.

So my parents, who always did everything by the book, and got called foolish by their neighbors for years, got for free a 45k photovoltaic system and the renewal of the shed, while most of the requests were rejected because various irregularities were in place. Which again did the government a tool to investigate who committed a fraud in the past and fine them.

---

Personal advice: unless you're Bezos level rich, don't try to outmsart the government. Chances are your children will have to pay for your assholeness.

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#874

Post by CraigJPerry »

franciscop wrote: post #852
CraigJPerry wrote: post #716

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re talking about intangible assets. For better or worse, usually it’s a licence or contract that exists to artificially limit your ability to copy. When you’ve sold your licence to use the software, the software is effectively gone. It’s not always as simple as that. E.g. my brand is an intangible asset. >> If I make a painting That’s just a regular asset, once it’s sold you’ll need to paint a new one.

> For better or worse, usually it’s a licence or contract that exists to artificially limit your ability to copy. I can assure you I didn't have to issue manual licenses or make manual copies for the millions of downloads that my open source software had this year. When someone downloaded it, no one found it missing from their project. > once it’s sold you’ll need to paint a new one Hence is not zero-sum, I can keep…

>> I can assure you I didn't have to issue

You did - if it was open source, you issued a copyleft licence that uses the system of copyright to disclaim your rights. It’s a licence.

Maybe you didn’t specify a licence, depending on your jurisdiction then perhaps the work is classed public domain automatically or more likely you’ve created a situation where technically your users are breaching your copyright.

>> I can keep making them

Sure, you can exchange some assets (paint, a canvas) and your labour to make a new asset (a painting).

>> By creating a new painting nothing is lost.

You’ll no longer have the paint or the canvas, you’ll have a painting. Zero sum.

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#875

Post by peoplefromibiza »

mdp2021 wrote: post #816
peoplefromibiza wrote: post #751

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your personal devices are already linked to your name. Do you really believe you are anonymous? SIM cards are not, for example, since forever here in Europe. warranty certificates must contain all your personal data to be valid. You would renounce to free 2 years warranty only to pay cash? Why? what's the deal with that laptop, what's the reason to keep it secret? Suddenly your secrecy it's much more interesting for…

> Your personal devices are already linked to your name It is hoped that nobody is so stupid to try that. > Do you really believe you are anonymous? I radically believe on that right of so being. > You would renounce to free 2 years warranty only to pay cash? Very certainly. > Why? Because that is what a Man does. > what's the reason to keep it secret Basicmost principle. > interesting Monkeys surely are intrigued wh…

> I radically believe on that right of so being.

There are people that believe in a magical being with long blonde hair that died and resurrected 3 days later.

That doesn't make it real.

I know a few people that cannot be tracked by the usual means, you would never survive living their life.

> Basicmost principle.

I'm sure police will understand when they stop you with 15k euros in your backpack and no justification for it.

> Monkeys surely are intrigued when they see men acting

No, they are not.

Privacy is closing the door when you go to the bathroom, what you are talking about is secrecy.

Which is why the CIA is called a secret service and not a privacy service.

To commit crimes unpunished, you need secrecy.

Interestingly, monkeys do understand that, some people don't.

> Very obvious, it is expected that criminals be on FB and Tw and smile at Sino-Thatcherian cameras etc.

It's exactly what they do. One of them bought Twitter. Another was best friend and producer of all the Hollywood celebrities. Another one won the presidential elections in the United States of A.

Reality beats fiction every time.

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#876

Post by peoplefromibiza »

ilyt wrote: post #715
acatton wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't apply to most EU countries. (Nuance: I'm not well versed in the legal system of countries part of the Bucharest Nine group, hence my "most") In most of the EU, buying land and houses is done through a notary services. Depending on the country, you either do a SEPA transfer directly to the notary, and they then send it to the other party. Or, in other countries, you do the SEPA transfer to the other party…

We literally got paid in cash for piece of land to build a house my dad was selling few years ago. Yes, notary was involved and it would be invalid if buyer didn't paid, but it was very much a bundle of cash getting exchanged.

use of cash is not prohibited, the proposal forbids it for amount larger than 10k in a single transactions unless authorized

A notary signing an agreement between a buyer and a seller is a legitimate reason to spend all that money in cash.

Which is very rare though, I only know old cow farmers in little towns close to the mountains here that deal with much cash (for lack of near bank offices and their lack of a driving license)

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#877

Post by cute_boi »

XorNot wrote: post #634
csomar wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't know what circumstances this "dissident running from the government" is facing.

Government is under no obligation to make it easy for you to overthrow it (which is by definition, a criminal enterprise). You want to avoid problems? Get involved in local politics, or start a media publication or literally any one of a thousand things you could do right now which is going to be a lot easier then "become an off the grid fugitive dissident".

>"You want to avoid problems? Get involved in local politics, or start a media publication or literally any one of a thousand things you could do right now which is going to be a lot easier then "become an off the grid fugitive dissident"."

It isn't as easy as you are saying. If it was this easy, there would be no issues, no poverty, no refuge etc.

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#878

Post by cute_boi »

Teandw wrote: post #581
hartator wrote: post #535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just a bank transfer. Which is not free, anonymous, and require a third party.

It's free in most EU countries. I've never paid for a bank transfer. The third party doing the transaction gives me some protection that I wouldn't otherwise have. Can't argue against the anonymous part of it but when the transaction is between me, the seller and the bank, I'm not sure why it would need to be anonymous.

Well taxpayer pays for these transactions probably?

Regarding anonymous part, there are some people life refuge/dissidents who might wanna hide their expenditure?

Also, I don't wanna give any data access to government because I don't trust them simply.

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#879

Post by xxs »

1337biz wrote: post #504
Teandw wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Cash is king. If you are buying a non running classic car and have a tow vehicle and trailer ready you can drive a hard bargain in the moment." If I send a 10k payment to someone via bank transfer it's in their bank account in 10 seconds. Maybe you live in a country where there are much harsher restrictions?

It is about speed. If someone offers 10k in cash and someone talk about wire transfer blahblah, sellers will always prefer the buyer just paying in cash.

nonsense - if i get cash i will have to deposit it myself. I suppose that part comes depending how cashless the society has gone.

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#880

Post by xxs »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #558
1337biz wrote: post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hn responses are stunning. It is insane that a pro privacy crowd supports the removal of freedoms, such as cash payments. It is amazing how many hn users appreciate their bank and government to keep track of their purchases and hope more people will become like them - just because they can't imagine buying anything worth 10k. When even HN is in full swing anti cash - and with current inflation rates 10k probably…

The European crowd on HN in general is very much in favor of big government. I assume GDPR is very popular here despite making software development a huge pain, for example. Americans on HN (and ironically a lot of Germans on here) seem to be much more libertarian in their sensibility.

GDPR is actually pretty damn decent to deal with. Saying that while the company has legal obligations to retain a lot of personal data - anonymize, encrypt, report (AML being a part, too), forget (incl. personal encryption keys) and what not.

So definitely - not pain.

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