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Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

robkhenderson.substack.com

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Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#231

Post by nostrademons »

sanderjd wrote: post #212

> An example from Ogilvy Vice Chairman Rory Sutherland: If you’re a top executive, turning up to work on a bicycle is a high-status activity because it was a choice and not a necessity. But if you work at Pizza Hut, turning up on a bike means you can’t afford a car. It must be so tedious to live having internalized this perspective on people. The vast vast majority of people are not "signaling" when they do things, t…

Most of this is unconscious for the general population, the consequence of mimicry + social cues + emotional rewards. The person who shows up to Pizza Hut on a bicycle isn't thinking about social status consciously. Instead, they get slightly pitying looks from coworkers, which make them feel slightly inferior and ashamed, which makes them not do it again. The top executive who shows up on a bicycle gets no such feedback, and so they keep doing it.

You see "accidental countersignaling" from people who are generally oblivious to social cues, like folks with Aspergers or recent immigrants to a country, because the subtle feedback from other people doesn't register for them. These people tend to exist apart from the social reality and inhabit only economic and physical reality.

Articles (and comments) like this one are describing what's going on, not prescribing it. Basically nobody goes into a social situation thinking "How can I raise my social status?" The people who do come off as phonies, because the emotions involved operate very subtly and quickly and if it's not unconscious it's apparent to other people. But you can analyze the situation after the fact and describe what's going on, as well as try to train your unconscious offline to have better responses to the situation you were in.

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#232

Post by notinfuriated »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #184
steveBK123 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct, a G-shock would get the job done better. I always viewed watches as the only mainstream sociable acceptable form of male jewelry. And regardless of which model, generally no more expensive than a woman's engagement or wedding ring, and actually usually cheaper. Plus it does something other than look pretty - tells time & date!

Prestige cars, mega yachts, private jets, and corporations that make rockets and satellites are also male jewellery. But the article: it's repetitive and slightly rambling and reads like it was written by some variant of GPT. The point is fair, but it's also well known to class watchers. In the UK nouveau means a gigantic new build mansion full of chrome and glass, a private gym, and plastic and dental surgery. Old m…

> Prestige cars, mega yachts, private jets, and corporations that make rockets and satellites are also male jewellery.

If we're going down this line, why stop here? You forgot the 'trophy wife' which is definitely more prevalent than the dig at Musk/Bezos.

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#233

Post by sanderjd »

paganel wrote: post #224
sanderjd wrote: post #212

> An example from Ogilvy Vice Chairman Rory Sutherland: If you’re a top executive, turning up to work on a bicycle is a high-status activity because it was a choice and not a necessity. But if you work at Pizza Hut, turning up on a bike means you can’t afford a car. It must be so tedious to live having internalized this perspective on people. The vast vast majority of people are not "signaling" when they do things, t…

It’s not tiring at all, it’s just becoming acutely aware of the day-to-day socio-economic realities. Yes, a good friend of mine can afford to be a (rather poorly paid) journalist because said friend is in fact a millionaire when it comes to his inherited real-estate assets, but someone like me (my parents had to rely on subsistence agriculture until not that long ago) has to always have a decent-paying job available…

Your examples are not "signaling".

A rich person being a poorly paid journalist because they want to and can afford to isn't signaling, they're just doing something they want to do and which they can afford to do. Very very few people do such things simply for the sake of appearances.

You (and me, for what it's worth) always having to have a decent-paying job available or else is also not "signaling", it just is what it is, we have to work jobs because we have to work jobs, there isn't a status meta-game to it, it's just how we afford life.

It's the mindset of looking at things like your poorly paid journalist example, and thinking "that person is signaling" rather than "that person wants to be a journalist" that I find tedious and unrelatable.

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#234

Post by nightski »

redler wrote: post #228
nightski wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By framing the problem like this you are making the assumption the variables are independent which is very much not the case. Your work can influence your luck, and even how much effect said luck has.

Luck indeed finds you hard at work. But also, if you’re not sitting at the table, you’re on the menu.

That hasn't really been my experience, but ymmv. But it's also why we should fight so much against centralization in the economy even if it brings efficiency gains. Ideally you'd want to have as large of a table as possible.

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#235

Post by gist »

sanderjd wrote: post #212

> An example from Ogilvy Vice Chairman Rory Sutherland: If you’re a top executive, turning up to work on a bicycle is a high-status activity because it was a choice and not a necessity. But if you work at Pizza Hut, turning up on a bike means you can’t afford a car. It must be so tedious to live having internalized this perspective on people. The vast vast majority of people are not "signaling" when they do things, t…

> The vast vast majority of people are not "signaling" when they do things, they are just doing things.

Well forgetting the fact that neither of us can prove what we think about this I do believe it's a form of signaling. At least in the sense that someone who does not have status if (from my observation over the years) less likely to do things that could further confirm or lower their status.

For example growing up my mom had a 'cleaning lady'. That cleaning lady would insist that when my mom dropped her off it was not in front of her house but where her neighbors couldn't see that another woman was dropping her off (because that would imply she was cleaning houses). Likewise an employee of my father (factory/warehouse work) would always change out of their clothes and travel home in something much nicer. And not because the clothes were dirty either.

I dress in a t-shirt and dungarees everyday. When I was younger (and also in my own new business) I wore a suit. Sure times were different but for one thing now I don't need to prove anything.

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#236

Post by aix1 »

ww520 wrote: post #205
aix1 wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the Land Cruiser will be passed down for many generations Wait, what sort of longevity are we taking about? 15 years? 20? I don't think we humans can reproduce quickly enough for that to span "many generations". :-)

That sounds like a response from a Large Language Model.

Nah, it's from someone who hasn't owned a car in over ten years.

I can totally see how a car could get passed down from father to son, but a single car and "many generations" doesn't really add up in this part of the world (could be totally different in other parts of the world, of course).

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#237

Post by golemotron »

sanderjd wrote: post #212

> An example from Ogilvy Vice Chairman Rory Sutherland: If you’re a top executive, turning up to work on a bicycle is a high-status activity because it was a choice and not a necessity. But if you work at Pizza Hut, turning up on a bike means you can’t afford a car. It must be so tedious to live having internalized this perspective on people. The vast vast majority of people are not "signaling" when they do things, t…

> It must be so tedious to live having internalized this perspective on people. The vast vast majority of people are not "signaling" when they do things, they are just doing things. This constant meta game mostly exists in the minds of this iamverysmart crowd.

I think what you are missing is that they are signaling whether they realize it or not. A signal is just a discernible phenomenon that is given meaning by observers. It doesn't have be intentional.

An example: social counter-signaling often arises naturally and unconsciously. Think about the rich person who would rather not be recognized as such, or the person who is a bit carefree because they are beyond the grind. They don't consciously adopt a 'carefree persona', they just feel more at ease because of their life situation.

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#238

Post by sanderjd »

nostrademons wrote: post #231
sanderjd wrote: post #212

> An example from Ogilvy Vice Chairman Rory Sutherland: If you’re a top executive, turning up to work on a bicycle is a high-status activity because it was a choice and not a necessity. But if you work at Pizza Hut, turning up on a bike means you can’t afford a car. It must be so tedious to live having internalized this perspective on people. The vast vast majority of people are not "signaling" when they do things, t…

Most of this is unconscious for the general population, the consequence of mimicry + social cues + emotional rewards. The person who shows up to Pizza Hut on a bicycle isn't thinking about social status consciously. Instead, they get slightly pitying looks from coworkers, which make them feel slightly inferior and ashamed, which makes them not do it again. The top executive who shows up on a bicycle gets no such feed…

> Instead, they get slightly pitying looks from coworkers, which make them feel slightly inferior and ashamed, which makes them not do it again.

No they don't! Is my point. This is almost entirely a story made up by this bizarro world of smart people who think themselves into circles (and aren't working at pizza hut). Nobody cares how someone gets themselves to their job at pizza hut; the other people working there aren't thinking about this, the person riding the bike there isn't thinking about this. This is just people like us with too much time on our hands to write substacks and debate silly things on internet message boards constructing castles in the sky.

> Articles (and comments) like this one are describing what's going on, not prescribing it.

I recognize that it is attempting to describe what's going on. I am saying that I think it is failing to accurately describe what's going on.

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#239

Post by Animats »

steveBK123 wrote: post #143
trasz2 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technically a Rolex, however expensive, will always be much worse as a watch than a 20$ Casio. But recently there's another aspect to this: there are now watches that are technically (mechanically) identical to rolexes. Same design, same mechanics, virtually impossible to tell the difference when you tear it apart. Rolex has always been more about marketing (artificial scarcity, waiting list etc) than mechanics, but…

Correct, a G-shock would get the job done better. I always viewed watches as the only mainstream sociable acceptable form of male jewelry. And regardless of which model, generally no more expensive than a woman's engagement or wedding ring, and actually usually cheaper. Plus it does something other than look pretty - tells time & date!

> I always viewed watches as the only mainstream sociable acceptable form of male jewelry.

Now we have iDweebs, those Apple ear things.

Re: Be wary of imitating high-status people who can afford to countersignal

#240

Post by laserlight »

TrackerFF wrote: post #27

Maybe a bit OT: The other day I read an interview with a local guy in his 20s that struck gold with crypto, he'd invest something like $20k, and turned it into $40M. He basically went all in on one alt-coin before the marked exploded late last year, and the coin went up 2000x. When asked about it, he of course came up with a narrative that this wasn't just dumb luck. He had had worked hard for those $20k, and he had…

Obligatory xkcd:

https://xkcd.com/1827/

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