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Amtrak asks fed regulators to investigate Union Pacific handling of Sunset Ltd

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Re: Amtrak asks fed regulators to investigate Union Pacific handling of Sunset Ltd

#91
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To put thing in perspective, US rail moves: 61 tons of freight per American each year 94 tons of freight per mile for each passenger-mile on rail 1/3 of all export goods move by rail 1.7 trillion ton-miles of freight 40% of US long distance freight by volume uses rail So you have a problem in that increasing the costs to freight will affect all Americans in making them pay more for goods, whereas it will only benefit…

These numbers are similarly misleading. Read up on induced demand. Rail passengers in the US are small in number because passenger rail sucks . If it were improved, ridership would go up.

You don't know how much ridership would go up, or if it would go up enough to cover the cost of paying extra for the 94 tons of rail freight to be delayed when you prioritize your one additional passenger.

That's problem -- yes, if you spent $X demand would go up, but would it go up enough to justify spending the $X or not? Merely observing that demand would increase in response to a higher quality of service is not an argument, it's just a truism that doesn't provide any new information.

That is why I said elsewhere on this thread that passenger rail needs its own dedicated track. Because the rail we have is so valuable to freight that it's not plausible that passengers or the general public would be willing to pay the price necessary to deprioritize freight. That price is enormous, but it's much more than the price of building out new dedicated rail just for passengers. Go back and redo your argument from the point of view of whether the increased demand would justify building out new track. If that's not the case, there's no hope of it being large enough to justify reducing the focus on freight. I think, in a few places, it is enough to justify laying down dedicated track. But not in all places.

Re: Amtrak asks fed regulators to investigate Union Pacific handling of Sunset Ltd

#92
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its long and complicated. Amtrak exists in the first place because once upon a time these freight operators were also the passenger operators. While today they look like "extracting rent", once upon a time they were forced by regulation to carry the burden of passenger service. The situation with Amtrak was basically the government agreeing to take over that before it killed the companies, but Amtrak would retain cer…

This is all important context, and I thank you for including it. I agree it's not as clear cut as "public versus private." But there's a recurring theme here: public money enabling private growth, followed by public money softening private decline. Railroads are just one instantiation of this pattern: it shows up in agriculture, industrial manufacturing, medical and materials research, &c. At some point, it should ma…

> But there's a recurring theme here: public money enabling private growth

Not in the US. The railroad industry is built on a mountain of bankruptcies, failed mergers, etc. Look up the history of the railroad boom and busts in the US if you aren’t familiar.

Re: Amtrak asks fed regulators to investigate Union Pacific handling of Sunset Ltd

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

extremely high quality service Really? When's the last time you had to go do something at the post office? It is a nightmare. Dirty building with disinterested workers, and long slow lines. The bulk of the mail I receive is junk mail, and multiple times a week I get my neighbor's mail.

Ok send a letter by UPS and FedEx for 60 cents to anywhere in the USA.

The thread you are replying to is complaining about the quality, not the cost.

Re: Amtrak asks fed regulators to investigate Union Pacific handling of Sunset Ltd

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As somebody that moved from Europe to the USA, I can attest that the USPS is the best postal system I have ever encountered. The service level is far above anything I saw in Scandinavia by a long shot. In Iceland the Postal Service is declining really rapidly, so much so that there isn’t even a post office any more down town in the countries biggest city. Yet in the USA you can get a package delivered to your door in…

Isn't DHL run by the German government?

Partially. The German state owns 20% and is the largest shareholder. However those shares are not managed by government directly (as with Deutsche Bahn, the railway, where the traffic ministry has direct hold) but is held by the Kreditanstalt für Wiederaufbau, which is tasked with handling it economical, not political.

Of course that separation isn't complete and strict and there is political influence from that level and they have influence via specific post laws especially on the letter side (government has oversight on tarifs and requires deliver to everywhere in Germany etc. via monopoly laws)

Re: Amtrak asks fed regulators to investigate Union Pacific handling of Sunset Ltd

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real problem here is that freight trains have so much priority in the US, unlike every other major country in the world. It doesn't matter how many or what kinds of trains we have. This sort of policy will always makes trains an unreliable and therefore impractical mode of transportation. And this is a major reason for the US leading the world in carbon consumption per capita.

Honestly we need to build parallel rights of way anyways. The freight rails are slow and dilapidated. It would make more sense for passenger railways to be separated from freight railways entirely rather than to try and squeeze into inadequate trackage. We don’t try to unload air freight through passenger terminals or vice versa.

That makes sense on some corridors but I'm not sure about the economics of building 2000 miles of dedicated right of way for a train that runs 3 times a week. Maybe if price, reliability, and speed of the service improved to such a degree it could feasibly compete with air and highway travel between those cities.

Re: Amtrak asks fed regulators to investigate Union Pacific handling of Sunset Ltd

#96
post #56
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, we have far too many.

What about unprofitable fire departments?

By some estimates, a firefighter costs $120,000 in yearly costs while saving over $500,000 in damages a year.

It's a lot harder to make the ROI claim for highways and roads, especially considering increasing road capacity does not decrease congestion -- added capacity tends to increase demand by over 100% of the difference, as little as 5 years later.

Re: Amtrak asks fed regulators to investigate Union Pacific handling of Sunset Ltd

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

extremely high quality service Really? When's the last time you had to go do something at the post office? It is a nightmare. Dirty building with disinterested workers, and long slow lines. The bulk of the mail I receive is junk mail, and multiple times a week I get my neighbor's mail.

Ok send a letter by UPS and FedEx for 60 cents to anywhere in the USA.

The USPS loses money heavily delivering to remote areas.

Re: Amtrak asks fed regulators to investigate Union Pacific handling of Sunset Ltd

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

extremely high quality service Really? When's the last time you had to go do something at the post office? It is a nightmare. Dirty building with disinterested workers, and long slow lines. The bulk of the mail I receive is junk mail, and multiple times a week I get my neighbor's mail.

Most interaction with USPS is at (residential) mailboxes. Sure, post office service is not great but they do a decent job of moving letters, post cards, and packages in a relatively timely manner - and the service for letters and postcards is damn cheap. In now remote / rural areas of the US, no for profit company would bother providing service, as it is wouldn't be profitably - but USPS serves everyone.

It's "damn cheap" because it's being subsidized heavily by US taxpayers.

"The United States Postal Service (USPS) on Wednesday reported a net loss of $4.9 billion for the year ending Sept. 30."

Re: Amtrak asks fed regulators to investigate Union Pacific handling of Sunset Ltd

#99
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The railroads were sure funded by public money, but it most certainly has not been taxpayer money. Instead, it was money invested by private individuals. Government did help the railroads with vast grants of lands, but most of the value of the granted land stemmed from the railroads that were built nearby. It was in fact a great deal for taxpayers, a win-win situation. > One wonders what the US's rail infrastructure…

> US federal government certainly is not known for providing high quality service at low cost, quite the opposite in fact. Medicare is a great example to the contrary. They provide healthcare to the sickest groups, and do so with roughly 3x less overhead than the private healthcare industry.

Medicare has a $768 billion budget per year. No US healthcare company comes close.

Re: Amtrak asks fed regulators to investigate Union Pacific handling of Sunset Ltd

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nationalizing them would be a disaster. They were deeply unprofitable until the federal government de-nationalized them after it had nationalized them and practically ruined them in the process of that nationalization. Let's not ruin what good things there are.

You can nationalize the infrastructure without nationalizing the operations upon it. Many other countries use a system where one government-related entity manages in the infrastructure, and many private companies can pay to operate rail services on that infrastructure. This would actually allow market competition instead of geographic monopolies.

We have something like this in the UK. It's a dogshit system that leads to service that is both awful and overpriced.

The whole thing should be nationalised.

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