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Is dark matter’s “nightmare scenario” true?

bigthink.com

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Re: Is dark matter’s “nightmare scenario” true?

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dark matter is the simplest theory.

*hypothesis Theory implies they found out what it is.

In physics, we have laws, rules, models, equations, theories, theorems, postulates, and maybe more. I can't think of one instance in which something has been "promoted" from one to the other after some data came in and couldn't even rank these in terms of certainty.

We still call it Newton's law even though we know it's wrong. We still call it Born rule even though it's one of the most tested things we have. We still call it the standard model even though it's the thing that works better than everything else. We call particular Lagrangians in Quantum Field Theory "theory" even though we know it's just a toy theory which doesn't describe reality. I mean, "toy theory" or "toy model" is a thing.

Physicists aren't nearly as nit-picky as internet commentators when it comes to this topic.

Re: Is dark matter’s “nightmare scenario” true?

#42

There's a chance dark matter is black holes created in the aftermath of the Big Bang. Some of these then merged into the supermassive black holes we see in the center of galaxies today. https://news.yale.edu/2021/12/16/black-holes-and-dark-matter...

I'm huge fan of that because in my view it requires least amount of making stuff up. So I probably never be convinced by any other explanation unless this one is solidly falsified for all possible blackhole masses.

Re: Is dark matter’s “nightmare scenario” true?

#43

Why do people in the comments always ignore that dark matter has way more evidence for it than just galaxy rotation curves (something very well explained in the article)? It's quite tiresome to read the same objections as if physicists somehow hadn't thought of them.

Probably because it's the only piece of evidence you can understand with just high school physics. Most laypeople have trouble understanding that the universe is not expanding from a single point, so how would they be able to understand what the cosmic background radiation is, much less why its angular power spectrum has peaks at particular positions?

It's a common pattern with crackpots as well, that they focus on "big" but easy to understand things like special relativity, which doesn't involve more math than you learn in high school. No crackpot ever revolutionizes condensed matter physics or statistical mechanics.

Although the bullet cluster should be a clear indicator as well, the rest of the evidence of DM appears much more subtle to a layperson.

Anyway, cosmology is a weird topic which not only HN reveals tons of arrogance over. Lots of misplaced skepticism. (Probably similar to the Covid topic.)

Re: Is dark matter’s “nightmare scenario” true?

#46

Why do people in the comments always ignore that dark matter has way more evidence for it than just galaxy rotation curves (something very well explained in the article)? It's quite tiresome to read the same objections as if physicists somehow hadn't thought of them.

Do you know of any good derivation of existence of dark matter a layman could follow through and be convinced?

This is a good write-up that justifies dark matter using 7 independent pieces of evidence: https://medium.com/starts-with-a-bang/7-independent-pieces-o...

Re: Is dark matter’s “nightmare scenario” true?

#47
post #30

My intuitive objection against dark matter is that it's basically an infinite amount of additional parameters to be fitted to the observations. Galaxy behaves weirdly? Add dark matter! It behaves as expected? It obviously has lost its dark matter! It stands to reason that for every possible observation, a particular DM configuration can be calculated. I fail to see how dark matter could ever be falsified. The best po…

Dark matter is not a “recursive property of gravity” because it’s not consistent like that, as your own initial objection suggests.

The concept of a particle that only interacts via gravity is straightforward. Consider neutrinos, which only interact via gravity and the weak force. Trillions of them pass through your body every second. Take away the weak force interaction and add some mass, and you have a dark matter candidate particle.

> I fail to see how dark matter could ever be falsified.

You’d have to explain what should be done about that. It could nevertheless be a correct theory, and we might one day verify it more directly.

Naive falsificationism is an almost useless principle at the frontiers of modern physics. We’re long past the days when you could run some simple experiments and come up with a clear yea or nay. That’s living in the 19th century, basically - which admittedly, many people still seem to want to do.

Re: Is dark matter’s “nightmare scenario” true?

#48

How small a black hole would have to be to be completely undetectable by us even when it flies through the solar system?

The minimum mass for a black hole is about 3 times the size of the sun. So we would definitely detect such an object. In fact it would have pretty catastrophic consequences if it entered the solar system...

Re: Is dark matter’s “nightmare scenario” true?

#49

Am I right in thinking no one has been able to detect dark matter despite decades of attempts and research? My understanding is that based on observations of what can be seen galaxies move as if there's move stuff in them?? If you hypothesis that this extra stuff is dark matter but can't detect it, how do you know it's real? How have you ruled out all the normal stuff that doesn't give off light or stuff we can't see…

Sort of, but gravitational lensing has been seen in places where there is no visible matter. If dark matter doesn't exist, then you'd have to come up with another explanation for the gravitation lensing: https://kipac.stanford.edu/highlights/using-gravitational-le...

You're absolutely right and this is the one thing about dark mayer that doesn't sound like "just keep sprinkling it on your problem till it works."

I don't know enough about the found examples of gravitational lensing to know whether all possible arrangements of black holes that could have the same effect, have been considered and found lacking. But I presume so.

Re: Is dark matter’s “nightmare scenario” true?

#50
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess the nightmare is more that it might be undetectable. There’s a real possibility that DM is real, but we hit the neutrino floor at some point without finding anything (maybe couplings are too weak). Until there’s an actual convincing alternative, that indeed is not as apparent as you make it out to be, that would be pretty terrible for a lot of physics.

Why isn’t it good for physics? It has found DM and can observe it via gravitational discrepancies, gets finally “solved” in this part. Does physics really need infinite modifications?

It’s not good because it means there is something in nature that we cannot understand and study, because we cannot in fact observe it directly.

The gravitational discrepancies we have already, but without an explanation or observation, they’re not very satisfactory.

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