Apparently I am a robot • Hacker News Board

Re: Apparently I am a robot

#21

Post by usrusr » Sun, Dec 11, 2022, 7:08 AM UTC

maxbond wrote: post #7

I think we're all going to get a crash course in how difficult measurement is and how no single indicator can be relied upon, over the next few years. I think we're going to have to develop robust ways of knowing by composing many indicators together, along with intangible/vibes based epistemologies. I think that in the same way "Gen Z" (acknowledging that the concept of generations isn't as meaningful as we might wa…

> I think that in the same way "Gen Z" (acknowledging that the concept of generations isn't as meaningful as we might want it to be) grew up understanding things about the internet better than their parents, their children will grow up socialized to use a battery of tools to determine what's real or fictional in an environment of adversarial information.

Perhaps youth will turn out to be almost immune, due to the fast pace of language fashions displacing each other in those circles? Which would mean that once they reach twenty they'll be as unprepared as someone from deep in the twentieth century... But then on the other hand, picking up specific styles and reproducing at will seems to be a strong point of those models and they can process more new content per time unit than any individual ever could.

I guess their real defense is already being deployed, that general shift from text to video. If emoji have been the first sign of impeding postalphabetism, what's GPT? In another thread someone mentioned the Butlerian Jihad...

Re: Apparently I am a robot

#22

Post by maxbond » Sun, Dec 11, 2022, 7:22 AM UTC

usrusr wrote: post #21

maxbond wrote: post #7

I think we're all going to get a crash course in how difficult measurement is and how no single indicator can be relied upon, over the next few years. I think we're going to have to develop robust ways of knowing by composing many indicators together, along with intangible/vibes based epistemologies. I think that in the same way "Gen Z" (acknowledging that the concept of generations isn't as meaningful as we might wa…

> I think that in the same way "Gen Z" (acknowledging that the concept of generations isn't as meaningful as we might want it to be) grew up understanding things about the internet better than their parents, their children will grow up socialized to use a battery of tools to determine what's real or fictional in an environment of adversarial information. Perhaps youth will turn out to be almost immune, due to the fas…

I dunno, I feel like video and audio generation is coming along as well. And the more people make videos, the larger the available corpus becomes for training.

A churn of shibboleths could maybe work, but not everyone would be able to keep up with it. Lots of people struggle to understand social cues and stuff. I can only imagine how exhausting for them it would be if there were a neverending font of social cues, selected for their difficulty to predict and to replicate. I do think shibboleths among small groups will be important, similar to how characters in Harry Potter use code phrases to mitigate the threat of polyjuice potion (which allows you to impersonate someone else's voice & likeness) to combat generative AIs used to impersonate someone over, say, a video call.

Man, Dune really gets crazy in the later novels. I only read the first. Had no idea there's a rebellion against the singularity.

Re: Apparently I am a robot

#23

Post by trompetenaccoun » Sun, Dec 11, 2022, 7:40 AM UTC

maxbond wrote: post #11

ggm wrote: post #2

Yep. I've been accused of using ChatGPT to compose some of my posts here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33930584#33930756

I'd like us all to try and reserve the accusation that someone is a bot until we really need it. I know this is probably pointless, like asking a fish not to swim, but if we water down this language (which is already happening & perhaps inevitable, I kinda think "bot" just means "person who expresses an opinion I don't like, that I've heard before, and feel is repetitive" in some circles - eg in this video [1] they s…

The time is now, because bots are already among us. I don't see what good would come of accusing a bot though, that would be like arguing with a car when it's the driver that you should address in case of issues. We should document cases where bots are used to influence opinion though. Like these: https://www.propublica.org/article/how-china-built-a-twitter...

Also, and I'm only half-serious here, claiming the time to accuse bots hasn't come yet is just what a bot would say ;)

Re: Apparently I am a robot

#24

Post by maxbond » Sun, Dec 11, 2022, 7:46 AM UTC

trompetenaccoun wrote: post #23

maxbond wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like us all to try and reserve the accusation that someone is a bot until we really need it. I know this is probably pointless, like asking a fish not to swim, but if we water down this language (which is already happening & perhaps inevitable, I kinda think "bot" just means "person who expresses an opinion I don't like, that I've heard before, and feel is repetitive" in some circles - eg in this video [1] they s…

The time is now, because bots are already among us. I don't see what good would come of accusing a bot though, that would be like arguing with a car when it's the driver that you should address in case of issues. We should document cases where bots are used to influence opinion though. Like these: https://www.propublica.org/article/how-china-built-a-twitter... Also, and I'm only half-serious here, claiming the time t…

Just to be clear, I'm not saying the time hasn't come, bots have been among us as long as there's been a social internet, I'm saying we shouldn't turn it into a pejorative or throw the accusation around willy nilly, because that's spending powder we're going to need.

Re: Apparently I am a robot

#25

Post by ilyt » Sun, Dec 11, 2022, 8:23 AM UTC

wildpeaks wrote: post #10

This might become more and more of a pain for neurodivergents, we already sound "odd" enough as it is, now people will assume we're just chatbots.

Nah, there are plenty of perfectly healthy people that sound like chatbot most of the time, I doubt you'd be ousted.

After all, they are trained with real chats and information so undoubtedly some conversations will be indistinguishable, there is only so many ways to talk about weather...

Hell, I'd actually welcome personal chatbot that entertains whoever bothers me with smalltalk and detail extraction and just tells me when the petitioner actually gets to the point about their problem

Re: Apparently I am a robot

#26

Post by ilyt » Sun, Dec 11, 2022, 8:25 AM UTC

ggm wrote: post #2

Yep. I've been accused of using ChatGPT to compose some of my posts here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33930584#33930756

> Musk may well find himself restoring the various Ikea ball room for grown-ups in due course.

> But in a workplace climate with 20,000 former FAANG washing around like polystyrene debris in the canal estate.. maybe he has picked his time well.

I'd think "Ikea ball room for grown-ups" came from chatbot too, that's on you dude

Re: Apparently I am a robot

#27

Post by ilyt » Sun, Dec 11, 2022, 8:29 AM UTC

maxbond wrote: post #7

I think we're all going to get a crash course in how difficult measurement is and how no single indicator can be relied upon, over the next few years. I think we're going to have to develop robust ways of knowing by composing many indicators together, along with intangible/vibes based epistemologies. I think that in the same way "Gen Z" (acknowledging that the concept of generations isn't as meaningful as we might wa…

> I think that in the same way "Gen Z" (acknowledging that the concept of generations isn't as meaningful as we might want it to be) grew up understanding things about the internet better than their parents, their children will grow up socialized to use a battery of tools to determine what's real or fictional in an environment of adversarial information.

Uhhhh, while average person from that generation might be a bit better, that's still "most people are terrible with tech".

I can totally see majority not seeing the difference between AI and "badly paid support staff", or PR bots.

Re: Apparently I am a robot

#28

Post by maxbond » Sun, Dec 11, 2022, 8:41 AM UTC

ilyt wrote: post #27

maxbond wrote: post #7

I think we're all going to get a crash course in how difficult measurement is and how no single indicator can be relied upon, over the next few years. I think we're going to have to develop robust ways of knowing by composing many indicators together, along with intangible/vibes based epistemologies. I think that in the same way "Gen Z" (acknowledging that the concept of generations isn't as meaningful as we might wa…

> I think that in the same way "Gen Z" (acknowledging that the concept of generations isn't as meaningful as we might want it to be) grew up understanding things about the internet better than their parents, their children will grow up socialized to use a battery of tools to determine what's real or fictional in an environment of adversarial information. Uhhhh, while average person from that generation might be a bit…

For sure. I could have phrased this better. Perhaps, "younger people were socialized to interact with people over the internet, unlike their parents or grandparents. In the same way, their children will grow up socialized to use a battery of tools to determine what's real or fictional in an environment of adversarial information."

I'm not necessarily saying they'll be good at it (indeed, that's part of my concern) just that they'll grow up in an environment where it's normalized & expected of them. Like how I grew up being told, "don't feed the trolls" or "lurk moar" by my online peers.

Re: Apparently I am a robot

#29

Post by AlotOfReading » Sun, Dec 11, 2022, 8:46 AM UTC

maxbond wrote: post #15

wildpeaks wrote: post #10

This might become more and more of a pain for neurodivergents, we already sound "odd" enough as it is, now people will assume we're just chatbots.

I heard similar concerns expressed when the insurance company Lemonade, in since deleted & recanted tweets, said they were going to use AI to look for signs of deception in videos people submitted along with claims. I only skimmed this article (I saw this on Twitter around the time it happened), doesn't appear to contain the deleted tweets, but it's discussed here https://www.vox.com/recode/22455140/lemonade-insuranc…

Along similar dystopian lines, companies are already using ML to review camera feeds during interviews to detect "cheating". I assume they'll add "deepfake detection" or similar at some point and people who consistently trigger false positives will become nigh unemployable in certain industries.

Re: Apparently I am a robot

#30

Post by maxbond » Sun, Dec 11, 2022, 8:47 AM UTC

ilyt wrote: post #26

ggm wrote: post #2

Yep. I've been accused of using ChatGPT to compose some of my posts here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33930584#33930756

> Musk may well find himself restoring the various Ikea ball room for grown-ups in due course. > But in a workplace climate with 20,000 former FAANG washing around like polystyrene debris in the canal estate.. maybe he has picked his time well. I'd think "Ikea ball room for grown-ups" came from chatbot too, that's on you dude

Why?

Pretty sure that person was just being rude & didn't genuinely believe they were speaking to a bot, anyway. I think they probably meant, "you're so unoriginal, talking to you is like talking to a chatbot." Hard to know though, they didn't elaborate.