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Time to end the war on drugs

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121–130 of 217 posts

Re: Time to end the war on drugs

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to upvote condemnation of misuse of the word war too, however note real war frequently does not involve mandatory conscription, deaths of large numbers of combatants, or one side totally surrendering.

As a corollary, I'd like to add this as a rule: If you are engaged in a mass bombing of civilians and military targets or committing ground forces to combative action for a period of longer than a week or two, that is a war, not a "police action" or other euphemism meant to get around (American) Constitutional requirements.

Yes. I posted to this thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2158522 outlining some of the unfortunate history of war and militarism changing the face of what was originally a more libertarian (small L) form of government in the U.S. If I were to expand that comment I would add the role Wilsonian Internationalism played in making War a good thing, if not a moral obligation. War becomes a euphemism for any given social engineering project (war on poverty, war on cancer, war on obesity, war on drugs).

Re: Time to end the war on drugs

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In New York, the police will do a stop and frisk, tell people to empty their pockets, and then charge people with displaying the drug in public when they obey the order to empty their pockets. Is this the loophole you mean? Or is your loophole a different one?

More or less. There are other variations on how to exploit the same clause in the law, but basically, marijuana that is 'open to public view or burning' can be prosecuted as if it is 28+ grams, regardless of the actual amount. The history behind how New York's marijuana decriminalization and this loophole came to pass, especially in contrast to the Rockefeller drug laws, is actually a rather fascinating example of th…

From Ann Arbor, Michigan here, where the STATE law says that possession is illegal, but locally it's a misdemeanour for non-medical and $25-100 fine. REF: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_laws_in_Ann_Arbor,_Mi...

If it's for medical use and you're all registered as a patient, it's now technically legal under local and state laws, but illegal under federal law.

TL;DR the laws are a mess and if the FBI catches you, you're still pretty screwed. We need to work on reforming the laws at a federal level, since that overrides all lower laws. It'd be at least cool to have the federal law just refuse to say one way or the other on marijuana, so that states could decide what is right for them.

Re: Time to end the war on drugs

#123
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you been to Amsterdam? It's not the poor addicts who travel, it's the rowdy 16-25 crowd. It must bring in a ton of tourism revenue, but I know the Dutch aren't thrilled about a ton of Brits, Aussies, and Americans wandering about their city stoned out of their minds all the time.

I haven't been there because there's no point; I can literally do the same things here with no consequences. Stoners are far less annoying than drunks. There's a good chance they won't even make it out of the house, but many people smoke daily and go about their business no matter where you live. No one notices or cares. And if there are people stoned every day then there are people people driving around you are ston…

That comment was directed to the person who said the idea of drug tourism was "absurd."

Re: Time to end the war on drugs

#124
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you suggest not to call a "war" has killed thousands of people in countries like Mexico and Colombia[1]. Is this what you mean when you say "deaths of large numbers of combatants"? I come from a country that suffers this "war on drugs", I've had members of my family kidnapped, I've seen people being assassinated in front of me by hit-men. Some others haven't been that lucky. I, with you permission, call this a "…

I would like to further suggest we end the use of the word "war" in contexts that do not involve mandatory conscription and the deaths of large numbers of combatants until one side totally surrenders. It's really interesting to me in what way his statement is actually true, as you say, just not in the way that it is sold (he is right on that part - declaring "war" on anything from Iraq to Christmas is in itself an is…

Drugs use and addiction are mental health issues. People who use drugs often have other problems. Maybe not serious problems, but, who doesn't have some problems that can't get better with some "talking it out"?

How many of us have had a beer or smoked a bowl of marijuana to "chill out" after the stress of work? It's normal to self-medicate in this modern world. We have to work at jobs, and then we take a chemical that used to be a religous sacrament, and use it to get a little numb and giddy.

People who can't handle life in a modern society... some of them become the drug addicts, who self-medicate to create a curtain between themselves and the world.

Re: Time to end the war on drugs

#125

The Colombian president, Juan Manuel Santos (also an entrepreneur), recently called for the legalization of many drugs, including cocaine: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/13/colombia-juan-sa... I'm a NYC-based, Colombian entrepreneur. My step-brother died piloting a Black Hawk helicopter in Colombia that crashed while executing an anti-narcotics operation. The helicopter was "donated" by the US as part of "P…

Glyphosate == Roundup(TM). This is the most used herbicide in the US... certainly not banned. Regardless, I agree with your conclusion.

Yes it is a widely used herbicide.. let me tell you a little bit about Roundup(TM). It is a wide spectrum herbicide that inhibits synthesis of some essential aminoacids. Basically, it prevents plants from growing, any and all plants that synthesize aminoacids like phenilananine and tryptophan. It does not affect crops because they have been genetically engineered to withstand the effect of glyphosate. I'll leave whole GMO conversation for another day, but the fact that the EPA has not banned it does not make it safe.

I believe the use of glyphosate in the US must abide by very strict standards and regulations. I'm sure its forbidden to fly around town and spray it on anything you feel like it, much worse if there is livestock, potable water, or human populations close by.

This does not happen in the Colombia (Disclaimer, I, just like torrenegra, am a Colombian entrepreneur residing in NYC, currently Lead Engineer in an NYC startup, formerly a Pharmaceutical Chemist graduated from the National University of Colombia, I also did a Bachelor of Science in Biotechnology in Sydney, Australia). The irresponsibility surrounding the crop-dusting practices in Colombia is inimaginable. After almost 12 years of cropdusting, the overall coverage of crops has grown. But instead, human populations have been affected, and the real impact on the dusted areas has not been measured. Logically, I can't imagine how 10 years of constant poison bombing the same areas can't have negative effects.

From the american citizens perspective, huge amount of taxpayers money has been spent and the goals have not been met. If there had been a reduction in the production of cocaine, this would've certainly been reflected in the street prices, it is my understanding that this hasn't been the case. We can oversimplify the problem, with the following analogy:

If you caught your kid doing cocaine, what would be more effective?

- Go looking for his dealer and putting him in jail.

- Getting rid of all the dealers in his neighborhood and school

- Waiting for all the coca plants in the world to be erradicated

- Actually talk to your kid, show him the real effects the drug has on his body and mind. Taking him to places where he can see the real effect that drug addiction has in society and people.

There are obviously thousands of variables that affect each path, but from a market perspective, if the demand for certain product is high, someone will find a way to supply it. After the demise of the large Colombian cartels, Colombian drug dealers have stopped trying to control the whole supply chain, that is why now its the Mexican cartels are now in an inner battle to be able to control the best route into the US. There have been submarines, there's mules, airdrops, fast boats, and a thousand different ways of to try to get cocaine into the US.

The big question here is, how do we reduce the demand for drugs?

Richard Branson's point is certainly interesting, and Portugal's attempt has been the only one I've seen to successfully reduce the demand for drugs.

Drug use is a personal decision, just like alcohol consumption and smoking are. Legal does not mean right, or ok. Tobacco industries are horrible monsters, and the problem of alcoholism is not brand new. It's a matter of education, of parents taking the time to explain to their children why anything in excess is harmful, even sugar. How narcotics are dangerously addictive, just like nicotine, and any wrong choice may take them down a path that will punch them in the face down the road.

Re: Time to end the war on drugs

#126
post #11

One has to remember that Portugal did not completely legalize drugs. Possession of small amounts and usage were legalized. Dealing is still a big crime there, due to the citizens of Portugal not wanting to be akin the worlds drug den. The different viewpoint of legalizing usage was that it is a medical problem, and not a evil crime. Even that said, Portugal also made their problems less severe by bringing them out in…

Hey, sorry I downvoted you when the post was just "O". The lack of a socialised healthcare system is actually a boon in this case, since the state is basically getting rid of a large cost (funding the police work on the war on drugs) without creating another cost (since patients then have to pay for themselves). Isn't it?

There's public rehab in the US. There are also public mental health hospitals, and public hospital emergency rooms. There are also jails and prisons. Drug addicts end up in all these systems all the time, taking up space and resources.

Some addicts are somewhat functional, but not enough to hold down a job. They may steal things. So the cost is borne by the community, who have to deal with stolen car stereos and broken windows.

What seems to work out cheapest is community based group therapy like what you get with Alcoholics Anonymous. You meet a couple times a week, and talk out how shitty your life was, and how shitty you were to other people. Then promise to not be shitty, and not get down. Maybe you get in touch with the fact that you're kind of "off" and need to see a shrink. Yes, it's a little culty, but so is worshipping the bottle :)

AA and NA are dirt cheap.

Re: Time to end the war on drugs

#127
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like to believe we're a culture that's willing to help people move past their mistakes to become productive members of society. I want to move the reality closer to that belief.

"I like to believe we're a culture that's willing to help people move past their mistakes to become productive members of society. I want to move the reality closer to that belief." If you truly believe this, then you wouldn't want to have drug addicts in the first place. Making it easy to start very addicting drugs in the first place (like heroin) with little to no consequences means we will most likely have more ad…

Just a technical point here. Most people who get addicted to opiates start with prescription drugs. Heroin is a lot harder to get than Tylenol with codeine or vicodin. Also, the typical opiate abuse is by non addicts who mix alcohol and the opiate.

Re: Time to end the war on drugs

#128
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that prostitution is de facto largely treated this way in the U.S. In most cases, they don't arrest the johns or pimps but they do arrest the prostitutes. Technically, both are illegal but enforcement has a tendency to be one-sided. From what I gather, proving a pimp has committed a crime is much harder than proving a prostitute has and although the clients are also breaking the law in most U.S. states…

I've always thought of that as backwards. In most cases, a prostitute is forced to work as slave labor by the controlling pimp. That makes her the victim. Without customers to pull money in (the Johns), she would make no income for her pimp. Once one instead follows the money, we realize that we can starve this trade by punishing the ones who have money (the Johns) and can dissuade prostitutes by making their somewha…

Actually increasing the penalties to buyer OR seller just increases the risk premium associated with the black market good, making it more lucrative and increasing the violence and repression associated with the trade.

Honestly TheAmazingIdiot, what are the odds in your opinion that the prostitution or drug trades are EVER going to be stopped? I mean just look at prison, drugs get in there and people are literally IN A CAGE.

Why not just admit reality which is that such "vice" is GOING TO HAPPEN and normalize it along with some basic protections?

Re: Time to end the war on drugs

#129
post #119
post #116

I have the karma to burn to come out and say this should be on another site. Not only has it already been discussed all over the internet, it's been discussed here to death, and in any event, yet another drugs debate here isn't going to accomplish anything.

Yeah, it's like SOPA 2.0. Where are my funny cat pictures?

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say.

SOPA is extremely relevant to most of us here in our roles as 'hackers' and startup people.

Drug laws are not directly related in the same way. If people try and argue that they are, they're playing "7 degrees of hacker news". For instance, "traffic laws are related to hackers because many hackers drive to work".

Funny cat pictures should not be here either - and aren't. Let's try and keep politics out of this site, even if individually, most of us are quite interested in the subject.

Re: Time to end the war on drugs

#130
Never going to happen. The "war on drugs" has not been about drugs for a long time.

Large parts of law enforcement funding are due to this "war", and whole prison industry sprung up around this.

Everybody knows that the "war on drugs" is ineffective and will never reach its stated goal!

Conversely by creating artificial scarcity, the price for drugs are driven up (because demand is more or less constant) and this guarantees huge profits for illegal activities providing these drugs.

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