EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments • Hacker News Board

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#451

Post by Teandw » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 11:32 PM UTC

csdigi wrote: post #384

Teandw wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I very much doubt there are money people that walk into an apple store with 10k in their back pocket to pay for some computers. Same with farmers. How many farmers living in this modern age are walking around with 10k in their back pockets? In the vast majority of cases, I would argue that people just use their bank account for such large payments these days.

It depends on how they got their income in the first place. My family are dairy farmers and frequently trade cattle at local auctions. This is still a cash based society (rural Ireland), it does not take many heads of cattle to make up 10k, many other deals are done informally (e.g. my grandfather buying cows from a neighbor without auction) with a value that is of that order. The money may hit a bank account if some…

This is one of those edge cases where you have a way of doing business that hasn't moved forward and 'with the times'.

Unfortunately when you don't move with the times, it ultimately catches up with you and forces your hand eventually. No matter how hard you try.

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#452

Post by ROTMetro » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 11:32 PM UTC

CraigJPerry wrote: post #330

mberning wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Horrible take. 10k is a pittance. Small business owners, farmers, people buying and selling vehicles, etc. It’s not a large amount of money. If you go down to the apple store and buy a couple well specced computers the bill is going to be over 10k.

I’d imagine it’s fairly unlikely you’re paying cash for that large amount, most people would choose a more convenient form of transfer surely? How much time is wasted in these transactions just counting and verifying the money? Also what if lots of people decided to transact like this. It’s not like the banks have paper to back all your deposits, they’d need time to go physically print paper if it became that popular…

The solution is to make larger denominations, not ban cash sales. But then the government would give up power, so that isn't going to happen.

US dollars say explicitly "THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL DEBTS, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE", it would be ridiculous to say 'under $10000'.

Once the government has control what's to stop them doing like China has proposed, and make your virtual currency have velocity, meaning if you spend it today, it's worth $1, next week .9, and next month .5?

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#453

Post by EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 11:32 PM UTC

pelorat wrote: post #294

AHappyCamper wrote: post #225

This is obviously the first part of a major push to force us to use Central Bank Digital Currencies. Now that they are banning cash, we will be controlled like never before. This is the beginning of the end of freedom.

Define freedom.

F(A) is a set of all actions an individual A is allowed to perform. If F(A') is a proper subset of F(A), we say that A' has less freedom than A.

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#454

Post by ur-whale » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 11:33 PM UTC

Teandw wrote: post #257

olivermarks wrote: post #253

'By limiting large cash payments, the EU will make it harder for criminals to launder dirty money. ' Bizarre how the EU is penalizing everyone in order to 'make it harder for criminals to launder dirty money'. People pay taxes in order to have their bureaucrats serve them by creating a safe financial and social environment, not to have them assume everyone is a criminal/terrorist and greatly impede access to their as…

In what circumstances have you or someone you known ever needed to pay for something over €10k in cash?

> In what circumstances have you or someone you known ever needed to pay for something over €10k in cash?

Anyone involved in the construction business.

But yeah, if you're a wage slave in the tertiary sector, you're very unlikely to realize how and why cash is necessary or even a matter of survival for a large class of workers out there.

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#455

Post by trafficante » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 11:35 PM UTC

expazl wrote: post #394

AHappyCamper wrote: post #225

This is obviously the first part of a major push to force us to use Central Bank Digital Currencies. Now that they are banning cash, we will be controlled like never before. This is the beginning of the end of freedom.

Where I live people in my generation have been primarily cashless at least the last quarter of a century, and yet we still significantly outrank the US in the freedom indexes, which isn't exactly a high bar these days, but still serves to underline that the typical American centrist argument that using primarily paper cash somehow improves freedom is wrong.

The major “freedom indices” are polluted neoliberal ideological wankery that shouldn’t be used to settle a bar argument let alone decide that it’s totally fine to do away with large cash transactions.

Even limiting things to strictly “financial freedom” - while more germane to the cashless question and also happen to stick the US above all of Europe save Switzerland - are highly questionable due to the inclusion of weird subjective metrics like “labor regulations = less freedom”

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#456

Post by Teandw » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 11:35 PM UTC

ur-whale wrote: post #444

Teandw wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Bizarre how the EU is penalizing everyone in order to 'make it harder for criminals to launder dirty money'." This likely affects a number of people that is so small, that it's irrelevant. Not sure it makes sense to say that such a law that effects a tiny number of individuals is penalizing everyone.

> This likely affects a number of people that is so small, that it's irrelevant. Citation required.

No citation needed. It doesn't take much brain power to know that certain things are or aren't likely.

It would be like asking me to prove that not many people have done the calculation of 15435 divided by 12.5 in their life. I can just tell you from basic logical thinking, that it's not likely that many people have.

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#457

Post by lionkor » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 11:36 PM UTC

zsz wrote: post #450

AHappyCamper wrote: post #225

This is obviously the first part of a major push to force us to use Central Bank Digital Currencies. Now that they are banning cash, we will be controlled like never before. This is the beginning of the end of freedom.

Fortunately this will also make it more difficult for North Korea to employ compulsory labor of NK civilians in the EU, which is one of the principal contributing factors to the regime's continued ability to act as a source of instability in the SCS region. There is a 45 minute documentary by Deutsche Welle (DW) on YT that informs on the issue. Anyway, as the road to hell is indeed paved with good intentions, this on…

Not sure how thats an excuse to make these kinds of changes in europe - it seems like an attempt to being emotion into a topic that shouldnt be emotionally charged

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#458

Post by Teandw » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 11:38 PM UTC

eddsh1994 wrote: post #317

Teandw wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your friend is lying to you. If you do this enough times, the bank automatically flags the account for money laundering. It's very basic and standard money laundering procedures. "I don't believe it'd be realistically possible to stop this from occurring." - It already happens and is already stopped so you're wrong on that one.

I know for a fact this happened and it was 2006/7 so nothing happened

So why did the person you know need to pay the builder in that manner, rather than just transferring him the money?

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#459

Post by LarryMullins » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 11:38 PM UTC

mcv wrote: post #137

woodpanel wrote: post #68

I just love how the grandstanding of European green-progressives of the past, when they positioned themselves as champions of privacy, completely flipped once they came to power. "Name one practical reason to pay amounts higher than 1.000€ in cash." – unknown progressive

They want privacy for regular people, accountability for the rich and powerful.

10k used to be the price of a new car, now it's the price of a used car. With a few more years of inflation, it will be the price of a used bicycle but the 10k limit will still be a 10k limit.

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#460

Post by heap_perms » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 11:39 PM UTC

isodev wrote: post #365

AHappyCamper wrote: post #225

This is obviously the first part of a major push to force us to use Central Bank Digital Currencies. Now that they are banning cash, we will be controlled like never before. This is the beginning of the end of freedom.

I think you are jumping the gun on freedom here. There are very few remaining instances in the region where people still pay large sums in cash. Transaction costs are so low (and mostly nonexistent) that cash remains in use either in very specialised circumstances or as part of “grey economy” activities.

There may be not many instances, but this is simply not an argument. That is irrelevant. People should be have the freedom to use cash.

We had instances where a government blocked bank accounts of protesters, in democracies and autocracies alike. This is unacceptable. No government in the world should be able to restrict what people can do with their own money. And with this EU-wide limit, we are one step closer to nothing else orwellian authoritarianism.

It's not just "grey economy" how you call it. It's part of an essential freedom that has been taken away from the people.