An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed • Hacker News Board

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#111

Post by andrepd » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 9:15 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #46

lesam wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there was an alternative in the form of a guaranteed not-terrible job at minimum wage, wouldn’t that necessarily raise wages (or maybe working conditions) for currently terrible jobs? Giving people a real choice seems easier than regulating every possible kind of job.

Why even bother with a guaranteed not terrible job? Seems simpler to go with universal basic income than wasting resources on uneconomic jobs.

There is a problem right with the motion of "uneconomic". If fixing basic infrastructure or growing food is unprofitable, but building sportscars or yachts is not... that seems to indicate a problem with the economic system of allocation of resources.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#112

Post by samus » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 9:17 PM UTC

CrazyStat wrote: post #88

luckylion wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not only about the person cleaning the toilets, companies often have more than one employee that's paid too little. Look at nurses for example: you need plenty of them in hospitals and nursing homes, they are (in my opinion) severely underpaid. Raise their wages by 50%. You can make an educated guess how that will influence the price of healthcare or living in a nursing home.

>You can make an educated guess how that will influence the price of healthcare or living in a nursing home. Based on the $49 charge for 5ml of sugar water to calm our newborn baby down so a nurse could draw his blood, probably not much. (The nurse failed to draw his blood. After four or five failed attempts over several hours they eventually asked a nurse from the NICU to come over, who got it first try.)

The nurse is probably receiving very little of these $49. It's probably an inflated price charged by the hospital that is usually negotiated down to something reasonable by the health insurance provider. Similar to the discussion I had with my product manager recently: she can't expect that consultant to work according to the 100$ per hour that his company charges, because he is likely receiving a lot less.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#113

Post by sin7 » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 9:21 PM UTC

quickthrower2 wrote: post #110

scottLobster wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, wealth is being concentrated at the top to such extremes that there is no more excess money in the lower/middle classes to tap. So somehow or other the increase in wages will have to come from the wealthy, whether through intentional redistribution, market forces, or peasant uprisings. Likely some combination of all three. Eventually it just becomes a physics problem. If $100 exist in the world, and one guy…

Your comment assumes that like energy, money cannot be created or destroyed. Which is false. Anyone can create new money by talking a loan from the bank. However this point also helps your argument: When you borrow you pay interest to someone richer. In a sense a combination of whoever you sent the money to, and the bank.

Can poor people take out a loan and create new money?

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#114

Post by burlesona » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 9:23 PM UTC

protoman3000 wrote: post #100

Wait a second, if somebody asks an overinflated way-over productivity wage for cleaning toilets because of a supply shortage, this is considered being unethical and "unwilling to do the dirty work, while receiving benefits", but asking a way way overinflated price for housing because of a supply shortage is considered good and healthy for the market and drives investment without shaming the investors for receiving un…

I agree with your sentiment, but your anger re: housing is misdirected. Developers do not short the housing supply. Like most businesses they make more in volume than they do in margin and would happily build more units at any price range if it was legal.

In the US and UK (and probably many other countries) the government has a default stance of allowing no or nearly no development without excruciatingly painful, expensive, and slow bargaining with city hall. The primary job of a developer is to get permission to build something.

The government is killing supply, not the developers.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#115

Post by samus » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 9:24 PM UTC

luckylion wrote: post #85

zozbot234 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany doesn't have Minijobs? They're pretty much what this article is describing.

Germany doesn't have > the cycle of "I'll take whichever bad choice is least bad right now because I'm desperate." Welfare covers the basics and provides for a modest life, no desperation included.

It provides no incentives to step out of it though. As soon as you start working again, the basics and the modest lifestyle is not covered anymore.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#116

Post by loa_in_ » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 9:24 PM UTC

sin7 wrote: post #113

quickthrower2 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment assumes that like energy, money cannot be created or destroyed. Which is false. Anyone can create new money by talking a loan from the bank. However this point also helps your argument: When you borrow you pay interest to someone richer. In a sense a combination of whoever you sent the money to, and the bank.

Can poor people take out a loan and create new money?

They don't, and in times where there's most need for that, banks squeeze their wallet close even tighter.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#117

Post by lotsofpulp » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 9:29 PM UTC

andrepd wrote: post #111

lotsofpulp wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why even bother with a guaranteed not terrible job? Seems simpler to go with universal basic income than wasting resources on uneconomic jobs.

There is a problem right with the motion of "uneconomic". If fixing basic infrastructure or growing food is unprofitable, but building sportscars or yachts is not... that seems to indicate a problem with the economic system of allocation of resources.

If society thinks there are too many sports cars or yachts, then it can increase marginal wealth/income/property/sales taxes. And if society thinks there is insufficient food or infrastructure, then it can pay people to make food and build infrastructure. Either way, if both are competing for the same supply of labor, only the highest bidder will get it.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#118

Post by loa_in_ » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 9:30 PM UTC

dudzik wrote: post #50

odiroot wrote: post #26

In communist Poland (probably whole Warsaw Pact), not only were they guaranteed, there was an obligation to work. You could go to jail if you avoided work. This created a somehow funny effect, were many just did the absolute minimum on the job.

My grandma used to tell me about this situation. Specifically, how infuriating it was to work with people that would do the absolute minimum and be rewarded like people making an effort.

And there's also some kind of a real psychological incentive for some, like myself, to be basically unable to do "absolute minimum" when I come to do the job and engage myself, because that would drive me crazy.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#119

Post by protoman3000 » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 9:33 PM UTC

burlesona wrote: post #114

protoman3000 wrote: post #100

Wait a second, if somebody asks an overinflated way-over productivity wage for cleaning toilets because of a supply shortage, this is considered being unethical and "unwilling to do the dirty work, while receiving benefits", but asking a way way overinflated price for housing because of a supply shortage is considered good and healthy for the market and drives investment without shaming the investors for receiving un…

I agree with your sentiment, but your anger re: housing is misdirected. Developers do not short the housing supply. Like most businesses they make more in volume than they do in margin and would happily build more units at any price range if it was legal. In the US and UK (and probably many other countries) the government has a default stance of allowing no or nearly no development without excruciatingly painful, exp…

I understand your willingness to attribute wrong behavior to the correct culprit.

But, how does it come, that these procedures to get building permits have been slowed down/bureaucratized to the point that it almost seems intentional?

Also, the anger is not about them intentionally shortening supply - it’s about them intentionally asking and taking the higher prices. Nobody forces them to take more than e.g. a 10% shortage signal markup, but we force people on the other side to wipe the floor with their dignity.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#120

Post by swearwolf » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 9:40 PM UTC

protoman3000 wrote: post #119

burlesona wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your sentiment, but your anger re: housing is misdirected. Developers do not short the housing supply. Like most businesses they make more in volume than they do in margin and would happily build more units at any price range if it was legal. In the US and UK (and probably many other countries) the government has a default stance of allowing no or nearly no development without excruciatingly painful, exp…

I understand your willingness to attribute wrong behavior to the correct culprit. But, how does it come, that these procedures to get building permits have been slowed down/bureaucratized to the point that it almost seems intentional? Also, the anger is not about them intentionally shortening supply - it’s about them intentionally asking and taking the higher prices. Nobody forces them to take more than e.g. a 10% sh…

In many of the places that are the hardest to build in, like California, they are intentional. Those regulations were out there to slow down development as much as possible. The motivation behind doing so varied some; sometimes it was hippie’s concern about the environment, sometimes it was homeowners seeking to protect the character of their neighborhood, and sometimes it was the latter masquerading as the former. All of it was intentional.