Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#281

Post by rootusrootus » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 7:24 PM UTC

govg wrote: post #92

fbdab103 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My ultimate dream is to be able to more or less avoid flying. Hop in my car at 11pm, punch in address, pull out the lay-flat seat, go to sleep, wake-up 7-8 hours away. If I make it a day trip, I can do the entire thing in reverse never having had to pay for a hotel. Living on the coast, I would still have to resort to flying, but there are many places I would enjoy that are reachable in an eight hour drive.

You can do this in practically every EU country, not to mention Asia (I don't know about other parts of the globe) via trains. I don't get why it has to be a car. It's just that the US has zero infrastructure for both inter city as well as intra city public transport outside of like 4 cities.

The US has one of the most extensive rail networks in the world. What we do differently than Europe is use the rail network almost exclusively for freight. If we followed Europe's lead and did a lot more freight via long haul truck, we could free up a bunch of infrastructure for passengers, but would the end result be a net win? Or would we actually increase emissions by doing that?

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#282

Post by dotancohen » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 7:25 PM UTC

coolbreezetft22 wrote: post #77

perardi wrote: post #19

Well fortunately Tesla has a laser-focused CEO that is devoting his time to making sure a feature which he clearly stated was absolutely critical is being responsibly developed and marketed. Really grateful for that—I’d hate to think this publicly traded company that had a sky-high valuation that was, in part, based off this promise was being led by somebody who is off in the weeds worried about social media or somet…

At this point I'd imagine Tesla is better off with Musk being distracted by his shiny new toy. Though I'd be concerned about the effect he is having on their brand image. Even two years ago I was on the verge of buying a Tesla but ended up cancelling my order in large part because I just couldn't stand the obnoxiousness of Elon and he has gotten orders of magnitude worse since then. His new "demographic"/cult also se…

What is with this Cult of Elon? I really don't care who the CEO is, I love my Model 3. It costs me literally one sixth the cost per kilometer than my previous Nissan was costing, when comparing the cost of electricity and gas. And that's before considering that I haven't had to change the oil or do any other scheduled maintenance in the 35000 or so KM I've put on it.

And it's not just the price. My kids who previously couldn't stand long drives now want to go places, at first because of the glass roof but now because they love when I sqeeze them into the seatback with the throttle. It's car number 15 for me, and the best of any of them by far. Who cares about the CEO? I don't even know who the CEO of Nissan was when I had that, or Ford when I had that, or Renault when I had that.

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#283

Post by anigbrowl » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 7:26 PM UTC

maxbond wrote: post #232

dnissley wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We find ourselves living in a vetocracy, where very little groundbreaking work actually gets done. Critics rule the roost at this current cultural moment. So there's a lot of pent-up energy that will be rewarded to anyone able to articulate a concrete positive vision for the future. Of course people are going to bow down and worship the one guy actually making progress against all odds. The only other person might be…

Would you kindly present an argument as to why one should believe we are living in a vetocracy? I see people pursuing all manner of projects all the time, I don't really buy that the world has been narrowed by criticism. What I see limiting people's ability to pursue projects they're passionate about is a lack of funding and opportunity.

People are, as are companies, but public works are increasingly bogged down but polarization, litigation, and bureaucracy. I think this creates a sense of unreality because campaign promises and outcomes end up feeling so disconnected from each other. 25 years ago it was more common to see public officials pop up in the news and say 'we're gonna start doing X' and then see construction crews or the equivalent at work the following Monday. It was also easier to keep track of 'progress bars' because the media landscape wasn't fragmented into 10,000 tiny snowglobes depicting a particular narrow view of the world.

The internet is part of the issue, but only part. Long-term political strategizing is another part, and a third factor is 9-11 which seems to have permanently traumatized the USA. As a simple example, information displays on subway platforms in my area are still putting up announcements about how public bathrooms in the subway station are closed for security reasons. It's been 21 years since 9-11 and major cities in the US are too freaked out to figure out basic things like public bathrooms and instead live in a permanent state of mental emergency.

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#284

Post by Veserv » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 7:26 PM UTC

fnordpiglet wrote: post #249

lawn wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That you're surprised that it managed drive door to door is telling. And not in the positive way you want to make it seem.

The fact you’re not surprised that a car can drive itself is telling. And not in the positive way you want to make it seem. It’s magic man. You’re jaded, and have set the goal posts too far and likely increasingly far. WRT delivery timing, who amongst us had delivered a complex R&D heavy software project on time? I’m not an Elon fan boy but I respect he laid out a vision and worked to execute on it. That he didn’t hi…

Why would you be surprised? Google did that with no safety drivers over 7 years ago [1], before Tesla even released Autopilot, after 6 years of development. The gap between that and a proper autonomous vehicle with no geofencing that is safer than even the bottom 10% of human drivers is immense and has not been achieved yet. That Tesla has achieved less in 6 years than what Waymo did in 6 years when they were trailblazing the field over a decade ago is disappointing. That Tesla executives believe their Full Self Driving product is acceptable to sell and ship to untrained customers, when systems that are nearly a decade more advanced and tens to hundreds of time better are unacceptable, is criminal.

[1] https://medium.com/waymo/scenes-from-the-street-5bb77046d7ce

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#285

Post by anigbrowl » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 7:28 PM UTC

dotancohen wrote: post #282

coolbreezetft22 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point I'd imagine Tesla is better off with Musk being distracted by his shiny new toy. Though I'd be concerned about the effect he is having on their brand image. Even two years ago I was on the verge of buying a Tesla but ended up cancelling my order in large part because I just couldn't stand the obnoxiousness of Elon and he has gotten orders of magnitude worse since then. His new "demographic"/cult also se…

What is with this Cult of Elon? I really don't care who the CEO is, I love my Model 3. It costs me literally one sixth the cost per kilometer than my previous Nissan was costing, when comparing the cost of electricity and gas. And that's before considering that I haven't had to change the oil or do any other scheduled maintenance in the 35000 or so KM I've put on it. And it's not just the price. My kids who previousl…

The CEOs of those other car companies were not raging egotists backed up by a crowd of howler monkeys chasing a parasocial dopamine hit.

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#286

Post by KerrAvon » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 7:30 PM UTC

georgeecollins wrote: post #173

wpietri wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At this point I'd imagine Tesla is better off with Musk being distracted by his shiny new toy. I think that's probably correct. One question I find interesting: What is Musk actually good at? He's clearly good at hype-driven PR and painting himself as a Tony Stark character. That has been great for Tesla; he's been able to raise gobs of money cheaply. Money that apparently kept Telsa from going bankrupt. [1] But th…

I am not an Elon fan or anything, but I don't think you can say the jury is out on Tesla. Tesla is the first successful new car company manufacturing in the US in more than fifty years. It changed people's perception of electric cars and changed the car market. Even if it has a ton of troubles going forward it will be a very valuable company. I think you have to give him his due for that.

You absolutely can say that the jury is still out. The required proof otherwise would be Musk stepping down and Tesla not immediately collapsing.

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

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Post by slg » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 7:30 PM UTC

TomSwirly wrote: post #267

slg wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment helps prove my point because you didn’t stop at just the name. It takes more than “the name is a misleading” to be considered fraud. Tesla is guilty of more than just giving the feature a bad name. If you are arguing fraud, mention those other things. Because people don’t spend $40k+ based off a name of a feature. I can still go to Verizon’s website today and find “Unlimited” plans so the name clearly wa…

I'm sorry, it's a scam to sell X "coming next year" and six years later, not to have it. > I can still go to Verizon’s website today and find “Unlimited” plans That other scams exist doesn't negate that.

> I'm sorry, it's a scam to sell X "coming next year" and six years later, not to have it.

Where did I state otherwise?

Once again, all these comments are reinforcing my point which is that there are plenty of more concrete complaints to make about this than “Autopilot is a misleading name”. I don’t know how many times I need to say I’m not defending Tesla. I am criticizing a bad argument. But I guess I should just accept my downvotes. I should know better than to try to have a nuanced conversation about Tesla and Musk.

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#288

Post by ninth_ant » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 7:32 PM UTC

ncr100 wrote: post #67

jakelazaroff wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretend you don’t know anything about the different levels. You’re just a random person looking to buy a car. What does “full self driving” sound like to you?

I feel our government should regulate this kind of speech more aggressively, to boost the safety of the public. The messaging by Tesla has been misleading, yes. There have been many other examples of couching date-slippage and over-promises with phrases like "no promises but Cybertruck|FSD|Model 3|Rockets|AI|Robotics|Neural-Link|End-Of-The-World should be here in two years." Announcing a capability, and importantly M…

I’m not against regulation but I’m not sure it’s needed here either.

In the case of misleading statements and marketing causing death, that seems like something that a lawsuit would handle, not regulation.

In the case of false marketing misleading investors, we would see investor lawsuits for that if the stock price suffered as a result. Right now, what damages would you show for musks lies?

Instead of new regulation, a lot of nonsense would have been avoided had the SEC not given him a free pass after the last round of investor fraud. It was entirely predictable that an egomaniacal child would not change behaviour after a slap on the wrist and a warning.

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#289

Post by rootusrootus » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 7:33 PM UTC

electrondood wrote: post #176

rootusrootus wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only time I touch the controls on the car is to input the address I want to be driven to.

This is already happening with regularity, at least in California. Engineering is about solving part of the problem first, then iterating. If you look at what they've accomplished only in the last year with FSD, I find it highly unlikely that 0-disengagement drives don't become the norm by the end of 2023. Currently, 90+% of drives have 0 safety-critical disengagements, and 50+% have no human-discomfort-related disen…

Are you referring to Tesla's FSD effort, or Waymo?

I hear excuses when I point this out, but lane keeping and adaptive cruise on the Model 3/Y are inferior to the competition now. AP was a selling point when the Model 3 first came out, it has become a bit of a joke now. If you buy a Model 3 today, it comes with an asterisk. If you want cruise control, beware, adaptive cruise has notable bugs and there is no option to turn it off and go old-school.

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#290

Post by NumberlessMan » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 7:34 PM UTC

gumboza wrote: post #165

coolbreezetft22 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point I'd imagine Tesla is better off with Musk being distracted by his shiny new toy. Though I'd be concerned about the effect he is having on their brand image. Even two years ago I was on the verge of buying a Tesla but ended up cancelling my order in large part because I just couldn't stand the obnoxiousness of Elon and he has gotten orders of magnitude worse since then. His new "demographic"/cult also se…

He does run a cult. My father finds Musk entirely reputable. I am currently subject to at least a 30 minute call a day from him, a retired model S owner, who has nothing left in his life other than the Tesla. The calls are 30 minutes of him reeling off Tesla PR bollocks. He chased everyone he knew away, speaks of nothing else and cannot see reason or error in this or any of Musk's things. He thinks the Twitter thing…

Please, be aware that if you call the mental health services on someone it can be extremely difficult to unwind. Once a giant bureaucracy tags you as a risk, sane decision making can go out the window. No-one will want to say you're not a risk even if you are sane, because their reputation suffers if they are wrong. Only a trained psychiatrist can make such a judgement legally and they may have an hour with you once every 3 months to make it. The psychiatrist will be acting in their forensic capacity, and will be unlikely to agree that you are sane unless you agree that you have a personality disorder and need medication. Being in that position can 100% drive a sane person mad.