An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed • Hacker News Board

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#41

Post by maerF0x0 » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 7:01 PM UTC

skybrian wrote: post #25

maerF0x0 wrote: post #11

One idea I've toyed with is that unemployment is actually a societal refusal to help eachother. Yes we all need sustenance, but consider something like this If I'm laid off I can choose to still program. If I don't my time might simply be wasted (eg on videogames, netflix, or even job applications). But I can also choose to continue to program. Maybe by helping local businesses, contributing to FOSS etc. While I unde…

One difficulty is that many societies are very individualistic. People are isolated. It's not enough to say that your skills are valuable in the abstract. There needs to be work that's obviously worth doing, and this requires either demonstrated demand or a leap of faith. This is fairly unlikely for someone who is depressed. Enthusiasm is very important and often in short supply. Also, entitled customers will repel v…

> a leap of faith.

This is absolutely the case. It takes "second" (or more like 100th) order thinking to recognize that you're part of an ecosystem that will be less well if you stop contributing just because you're not being paid. The faith part is that you will continue to have your needs (not necessarily wants) met through reciprocity -- which is a basic human psychological trait, so not the worst gamble.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#42

Post by VictorPath » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 7:02 PM UTC

Karl Marx said unemployment was a foundational necessity of capitalism (although not the feudalism that preceded capitalism), so I don't see this program lasting long ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_army_of_labour ).

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#43

Post by guerrilla » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 7:02 PM UTC

burritas wrote: post #39

guerrilla wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By paying a lot more.

Cheaper to hire a felon or immigrant. I'm not saying I agree with this arrangement.

Which is why nobody should be in such a weak position. It's exploitation pure and simple.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#44

Post by haunter » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 7:03 PM UTC

odiroot wrote: post #26

In communist Poland (probably whole Warsaw Pact), not only were they guaranteed, there was an obligation to work. You could go to jail if you avoided work. This created a somehow funny effect, were many just did the absolute minimum on the job.

Yes that was true for Hungary too. From the 50s up until to 1989 it was a crime to be unemployed.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#45

Post by phkahler » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 7:04 PM UTC

cocacola1 wrote: post #3

These two paragraphs in particular stuck out to me: > Critics of labor-market programs such as the Job Guarantee argue that they enable precisely this sort of choice—they make it easier to decline work that one doesn’t like. One program participant in his thirties told me that, while on unemployment benefits, he’d been offered a job cleaning toilets at a gas station; he’d decided that he didn’t want “that sort of job…

>> If everyone were guaranteed a reasonably pleasant job, suited to their interests and needs and paying a living wage, who would do the grungy, difficult work? Austrian employers, like those in America, are currently having difficulty hiring people to take hard, poorly paid jobs; ma....

That the answer. Pay people more to do the jobs nobody wants!

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#46

Post by lotsofpulp » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 7:10 PM UTC

lesam wrote: post #28

kaesar14 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The unfortunate reality is because these jobs are plentiful and easy to do (NOT saying they aren’t demanding, just that they don’t require advanced training) it incentivizes a race to the bottom in terms of wages - but we should do better as a society in guaranteeing high working standards and wages through regulation instead.

If there was an alternative in the form of a guaranteed not-terrible job at minimum wage, wouldn’t that necessarily raise wages (or maybe working conditions) for currently terrible jobs? Giving people a real choice seems easier than regulating every possible kind of job.

Why even bother with a guaranteed not terrible job? Seems simpler to go with universal basic income than wasting resources on uneconomic jobs.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#47

Post by kbelder » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 7:10 PM UTC

haunter wrote: post #44

odiroot wrote: post #26

In communist Poland (probably whole Warsaw Pact), not only were they guaranteed, there was an obligation to work. You could go to jail if you avoided work. This created a somehow funny effect, were many just did the absolute minimum on the job.

Yes that was true for Hungary too. From the 50s up until to 1989 it was a crime to be unemployed.

In Belarus, you have to pay an extra tax if you're unemployed. A coworker of mine was struggling with that, because she was having trouble proving she was working in the US, they were trying to tax her parents.

Corrupt hellhole, that country.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#48

Post by burritas » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 7:10 PM UTC

guerrilla wrote: post #43

burritas wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cheaper to hire a felon or immigrant. I'm not saying I agree with this arrangement.

Which is why nobody should be in such a weak position. It's exploitation pure and simple.

I don't disagree that it's exploitation, but I think you obscure a very complex problem with "nobody should be in such a weak position".

I'm not sure any economic or legal arrangement could do away with weak positions like that entirely.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#49

Post by davethedevguy » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 7:12 PM UTC

cocacola1 wrote: post #3

These two paragraphs in particular stuck out to me: > Critics of labor-market programs such as the Job Guarantee argue that they enable precisely this sort of choice—they make it easier to decline work that one doesn’t like. One program participant in his thirties told me that, while on unemployment benefits, he’d been offered a job cleaning toilets at a gas station; he’d decided that he didn’t want “that sort of job…

I think this would cause a fundamental shift in our society.

Who would want to work minimum wage server jobs when offered the same salary for something more rewarding?

Who wants to do gruelling, poorly paid labouring on a construction site, if the alternative is training to be a craftsman for the same wage?

Those jobs would either need to be paid much more attractively (pushing up the cost of restaurant food and construction, in these examples), or - as quoted above - eliminated entirely.

I would be really interested to see how this would play out at scale.

Re: An experimental program in Austria that creates work for the unemployed

#50

Post by dudzik » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 7:12 PM UTC

odiroot wrote: post #26

In communist Poland (probably whole Warsaw Pact), not only were they guaranteed, there was an obligation to work. You could go to jail if you avoided work. This created a somehow funny effect, were many just did the absolute minimum on the job.

My grandma used to tell me about this situation. Specifically, how infuriating it was to work with people that would do the absolute minimum and be rewarded like people making an effort.