Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#231

Post by simmerup » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 6:41 PM UTC

dnissley wrote: post #223

gumboza wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He does run a cult. My father finds Musk entirely reputable. I am currently subject to at least a 30 minute call a day from him, a retired model S owner, who has nothing left in his life other than the Tesla. The calls are 30 minutes of him reeling off Tesla PR bollocks. He chased everyone he knew away, speaks of nothing else and cannot see reason or error in this or any of Musk's things. He thinks the Twitter thing…

We find ourselves living in a vetocracy, where very little groundbreaking work actually gets done. Critics rule the roost at this current cultural moment. So there's a lot of pent-up energy that will be rewarded to anyone able to articulate a concrete positive vision for the future. Of course people are going to bow down and worship the one guy actually making progress against all odds. The only other person might be…

I think you're on to something. At every other point in history the wealthy were expected to use their wealth. Victorian wealthy funded folly and public libraries and other stuff. Roman aristocrats paid for entire armies.

Our billionaires subscribe to greed is good capitalism and hoard their wealth though. Musk bucks this trend and therefore gets a ton of my sympathy despite his erratic nature. We need more Elon Musks not less.

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#232

Post by maxbond » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 6:42 PM UTC

dnissley wrote: post #223

gumboza wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He does run a cult. My father finds Musk entirely reputable. I am currently subject to at least a 30 minute call a day from him, a retired model S owner, who has nothing left in his life other than the Tesla. The calls are 30 minutes of him reeling off Tesla PR bollocks. He chased everyone he knew away, speaks of nothing else and cannot see reason or error in this or any of Musk's things. He thinks the Twitter thing…

We find ourselves living in a vetocracy, where very little groundbreaking work actually gets done. Critics rule the roost at this current cultural moment. So there's a lot of pent-up energy that will be rewarded to anyone able to articulate a concrete positive vision for the future. Of course people are going to bow down and worship the one guy actually making progress against all odds. The only other person might be…

Would you kindly present an argument as to why one should believe we are living in a vetocracy? I see people pursuing all manner of projects all the time, I don't really buy that the world has been narrowed by criticism. What I see limiting people's ability to pursue projects they're passionate about is a lack of funding and opportunity.

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#233

Post by watwut » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 6:43 PM UTC

mrtksn wrote: post #128

qzw wrote: post #17

You know, where Theranos went wrong was not selling some other thing and then tack on their “Full blood test in just one drop” thing as an add-on. Oh and making sure it’s labeled beta . That’s very important.

If you look at the track record of Musk, you can see that he promises something futuristic and delivers something conventional but with improvements that's still desirable. Haven't Holmes imitated Jobs but Musk, today she could have been a success story. She should have still promised all your tests from a single drop of blood and keep claiming that it's coming next year and deliver classical machines but with greatl…

Or he just does not delivers. It is not like there would be shortage of projects that fell down entirely.

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#234

Post by epgui » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 6:44 PM UTC

detaro wrote: post #178

epgui wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that would just be failing to assume good faith from the onset, which is a problem on its own (especially if we’re trying to interpret legal stuff).

We're talking about this years later, looking at years of context, that's hardly "failing to assume good faith from the onset".

I’m not sure what you mean exactly. If you’re suggesting that repeated failure to meet ambitious target deadlines is more indicative of bad faith than a single failure to do so, well… I don’t think it works like that.

The bar for abandoning the presumption of good faith, and the principle of charitable interpretation, is very high.

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#235

Post by angry_moose » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 6:46 PM UTC

kennend3 wrote: post #212

angry_moose wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forget rain and snow, they can't even handle non-California roads yet. I had the misfortune of taking a rental on narrow mountain roads and it actively attempted to kill us twice. While moving over to pass an oncoming car, the lane keeping feature decided we were too close to the shoulder and started steering us back into the oncoming car. After pulling over, regaining my composure for a few minutes, and figuring out…

> somehow it activated again on a different day and it happened again. I dont have a tesla but my car has things like "lane assist" and most of these safety features can be turned off, but the default state is "ON" and this is reset once the car is turned off/on again. Oddly enough, what it calls "advanced cruse control" defaults to OFF on my car and must be turned on any time you want to use it?

Yeah, I think it was something like that. Once I began checking for it, it seemed inconsistent - possibly related to how long the car was off?

The joys of modern technology - every time I get in my car, I have to spend 15 seconds checking the state of the "Car may decide to murder you setting".

Granted it did fine on wider, more developed roads once we got closer to larger towns, and it would probably do fine in my day-to-day life; but that whole experience has left me really shaken on any self driving tech. The roads it fell apart on weren't even that bad - well paved and maintained, just narrow and without any sort of center stripe.

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#236

Post by bagels » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 6:46 PM UTC

epgui wrote: post #91

bagels wrote: post #58

Tesla's lawyers state: "mere failure to realize a long-term, aspirational goal is not fraud" They intentionally neglect to acknowledge musk's many specific claims that involved specific timelines, as opposed to the nebulous long term aspirations they allude to.

Claims about what will happen in the future and on what timeline are obviously speculative and best guesses at best. No reasonable person would interpret them any other way.

"If you give me $10,000 today, tomorrow I will deliver your car" ... Three years later: "I'll deliver your car tomorrow"

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#237

Post by maxbond » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 6:48 PM UTC

poszlem wrote: post #229

huijzer wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let’s not diagnose people based on a few sentences.

I am not diagnosing anybody with anything, I am merely commenting what I am seeing.

> It sounds like you are afflicted with the same affliction as your dad

Are you going to tell me with a straight face you didn't tell them there was something wrong with them ("diagnose them")?

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#238

Post by mrtksn » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 6:49 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #233

mrtksn wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you look at the track record of Musk, you can see that he promises something futuristic and delivers something conventional but with improvements that's still desirable. Haven't Holmes imitated Jobs but Musk, today she could have been a success story. She should have still promised all your tests from a single drop of blood and keep claiming that it's coming next year and deliver classical machines but with greatl…

Or he just does not delivers. It is not like there would be shortage of projects that fell down entirely.

Delivering something useful is important. Holmes failed on that, She should have delivered something like regular test machines with a design that resembles something from the sci-fi culture and would have been off the hook for the delays and failures.

Maybe she should have done re-skinned Siemens machines. The original Tesla Roadster was based on Lotus Elise.

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#239

Post by gumboza » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 6:50 PM UTC

dnissley wrote: post #223

gumboza wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He does run a cult. My father finds Musk entirely reputable. I am currently subject to at least a 30 minute call a day from him, a retired model S owner, who has nothing left in his life other than the Tesla. The calls are 30 minutes of him reeling off Tesla PR bollocks. He chased everyone he knew away, speaks of nothing else and cannot see reason or error in this or any of Musk's things. He thinks the Twitter thing…

We find ourselves living in a vetocracy, where very little groundbreaking work actually gets done. Critics rule the roost at this current cultural moment. So there's a lot of pent-up energy that will be rewarded to anyone able to articulate a concrete positive vision for the future. Of course people are going to bow down and worship the one guy actually making progress against all odds. The only other person might be…

I think we need to look at the assumptions made. Has Musk and Zuck actually improved the world or merely reorganised it to gain market for their ideological purposes?

Delivery or not doesn't imply improvement. Progress for the sake of progress is not necessarily an improvement either.

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#240

Post by natch » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 6:51 PM UTC

coolbreezetft22 wrote: post #77

perardi wrote: post #19

Well fortunately Tesla has a laser-focused CEO that is devoting his time to making sure a feature which he clearly stated was absolutely critical is being responsibly developed and marketed. Really grateful for that—I’d hate to think this publicly traded company that had a sky-high valuation that was, in part, based off this promise was being led by somebody who is off in the weeds worried about social media or somet…

At this point I'd imagine Tesla is better off with Musk being distracted by his shiny new toy. Though I'd be concerned about the effect he is having on their brand image. Even two years ago I was on the verge of buying a Tesla but ended up cancelling my order in large part because I just couldn't stand the obnoxiousness of Elon and he has gotten orders of magnitude worse since then. His new "demographic"/cult also se…

So instead you bought a car from a company run by people who are afraid to ever travel to the United States because they know they may be subject to personal prosecution for Dieselgate, which they so far evaded.

I mean I agree he’s super obnoxious, but if making car purchase decisions based on the virtue of company leadership, I would have called it a tie and bought the better car instead.