Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#161

Post by throw7 » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:55 PM UTC

jakelazaroff wrote: post #4

MichaelZuo wrote: post #2

It might be a plausible argument for stuff sold 6 years ago when the future was uncertain. But in 2022 I'm not seeing how it's plausible as an excuse. Considering it's still being sold and marketed as 'Full self driving'. Clearly even level 4 autonomy is far beyond what any near future technology is capable of. If at the very least due to the fact that a very commonly encountered condition, construction work, effecti…

Pretend you don’t know anything about the different levels. You’re just a random person looking to buy a car. What does “full self driving” sound like to you?

I know what I want. I want to tell my car to go the the shop and get serviced, come back, and take me home after work. After a flight, have it pick up my inlaws at the baggage claim exit. etc...

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#162

Post by paulcole » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:56 PM UTC

MichaelZuo wrote: post #2

It might be a plausible argument for stuff sold 6 years ago when the future was uncertain. But in 2022 I'm not seeing how it's plausible as an excuse. Considering it's still being sold and marketed as 'Full self driving'. Clearly even level 4 autonomy is far beyond what any near future technology is capable of. If at the very least due to the fact that a very commonly encountered condition, construction work, effecti…

> Considering it's still being sold and marketed as 'Full self driving'.

The problem is that this isn’t what they do. They are extremely careful in their wording.

Go back through the archive.org backups of tesla.com/autopilot and watch how their wording changes.

Here’s what they say today:

> Tesla cars come standard with advanced hardware capable of providing Autopilot features, and full self-driving capabilities—through software updates designed to improve functionality over time.

Despite how you or any reasonable person reads it, Tesla can easily make the case that the cars (as sold today) do not have full-self driving available right now. The hardware in the cars does have the capability of allowing full self-driving at some nebulous point in the future (something that’s going to be very difficult to disprove).

The other thing the do is use Autopilot (capital A) as a branded feature that doesn’t mean anything like what autopilot (lowercase a) means to a reasonable person.

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#163

Post by epgui » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:57 PM UTC

FireBeyond wrote: post #153

epgui wrote: post #83

The failure to understand the context of the quote is palpable in both the article and comments. This is a standard legal argument used as a defence against allegations of fraud, and it’s not a judgment of how successful (or not) the product is. The only thing it means is “notwithstanding whether we’ve achieved our goals, we have been honest and well-intentioned”.

> we have been honest Well, that's also the thing - internal docs and interviews have shown that Musk was well aware that "FSD will be here, this year", year after year, was not ever going to be true.

I must have missed that memo. Do you have a reliable source for this?

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#164

Post by wpietri » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:57 PM UTC

jakelazaroff wrote: post #4

MichaelZuo wrote: post #2

It might be a plausible argument for stuff sold 6 years ago when the future was uncertain. But in 2022 I'm not seeing how it's plausible as an excuse. Considering it's still being sold and marketed as 'Full self driving'. Clearly even level 4 autonomy is far beyond what any near future technology is capable of. If at the very least due to the fact that a very commonly encountered condition, construction work, effecti…

Pretend you don’t know anything about the different levels. You’re just a random person looking to buy a car. What does “full self driving” sound like to you?

It sounds a lot like something Musk promised in 2019: "Next year for sure, we will have over a million robotaxis on the road," "The fleet wakes up with an over-the-air update. That's all it takes."

The most generous interpretation is that Musk is delusional and out of touch with his company and his technology. But I think it is more accurately described as bullshit ("speech intended to persuade without regard for truth") or a lie (making knowingly false statements).

I think the interesting question is whether that legally ends up being fraud in the context of a civil suit. Whatever was going on in Musk's head (deluded, reckless, or lying) it seems like Tesla as an entity should have known that the cars were not actually self driving and that customers could reasonably think they were getting self driving.

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#165

Post by gumboza » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:57 PM UTC

coolbreezetft22 wrote: post #77

perardi wrote: post #19

Well fortunately Tesla has a laser-focused CEO that is devoting his time to making sure a feature which he clearly stated was absolutely critical is being responsibly developed and marketed. Really grateful for that—I’d hate to think this publicly traded company that had a sky-high valuation that was, in part, based off this promise was being led by somebody who is off in the weeds worried about social media or somet…

At this point I'd imagine Tesla is better off with Musk being distracted by his shiny new toy. Though I'd be concerned about the effect he is having on their brand image. Even two years ago I was on the verge of buying a Tesla but ended up cancelling my order in large part because I just couldn't stand the obnoxiousness of Elon and he has gotten orders of magnitude worse since then. His new "demographic"/cult also se…

He does run a cult.

My father finds Musk entirely reputable. I am currently subject to at least a 30 minute call a day from him, a retired model S owner, who has nothing left in his life other than the Tesla. The calls are 30 minutes of him reeling off Tesla PR bollocks. He chased everyone he knew away, speaks of nothing else and cannot see reason or error in this or any of Musk's things. He thinks the Twitter thing is a freedom grab, he literally thinks SpaceX are building rockets to take the good humans off and build a new world order on Mars. To get the model S in the first place he cashed in his annuity pension and sold his house and is now on a downward spiral of financial oblivion.

This is exactly cult behaviour.

I'm at a loss of what to do other than refer him to mental health services here in the UK.

I couldn't even possibly consider owning something associated with someone so utterly socially damaging on every front.

Edit: I'm actually fucking crying while I'm writing this. Posted anon as my other account has my GH and stuff on it.

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#166

Post by epgui » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:58 PM UTC

detaro wrote: post #150

epgui wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Claims about what will happen in the future and on what timeline are obviously speculative and best guesses at best. No reasonable person would interpret them any other way.

A reasonable person might come to the conclusion that they weren't "best guesses" though, but instead knowingly misrepresenting the situation.

But that would just be failing to assume good faith from the onset, which is a problem on its own (especially if we’re trying to interpret legal stuff).

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#167

Post by electrondood » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:59 PM UTC

slg wrote: post #89

perardi wrote: post #19

Well fortunately Tesla has a laser-focused CEO that is devoting his time to making sure a feature which he clearly stated was absolutely critical is being responsibly developed and marketed. Really grateful for that—I’d hate to think this publicly traded company that had a sky-high valuation that was, in part, based off this promise was being led by somebody who is off in the weeds worried about social media or somet…

Good thing that this publicly traded company hasn’t loaned out employees to other unrelated businesses which happen to be owned by their CEO. I’d that happened, I would worry about the distraction being more widespread than just the CEO.

Employees at Musk companies have the freedom to moonlight, or even transfer entirely.

Tesla benefits from SpaceX materials engineering, for example. Tesla now effectively has access to a massive comms/PR engine, with far more reach than traditional advertising, without paying gatekeepers.

Ford spends $2B a year on advertising. Elon can reply directly to Tesla owners.

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#168

Post by wpietri » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 6:01 PM UTC

slg wrote: post #71

jakelazaroff wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretend you don’t know anything about the different levels. You’re just a random person looking to buy a car. What does “full self driving” sound like to you?

Musk is a charlatan, but why do people act like it is common to buy $40k+ cars like picking up some gum in the checkout aisle? What the features name sounds like is not the only factor here. People don’t buys cars with that lack of thought. What the salespeople say, what the marketing material says, what the manual says, what the CEO says in public, what the feature feels like during a test drive should all matter mo…

In your opinion, exactly how much time should people making purchases put in to investigate the extent to which they're being lied to? Because in my view, the burden should first fall on companies to be clear and honest.

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#169

Post by ChadNauseam » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 6:01 PM UTC

MichaelZuo wrote: post #87

cameldrv wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean? Waymo and Cruise have already deployed level 4 vehicles.

Can you link to the source claiming that?

Waymo offers a taxi service in SF where the cars have no driver.

From https://spectrum.ieee.org/amp/full-autonomy-waymo-driver-265...

> The Waymo Driver operates at Level 4 autonomy, meaning, Waymo says, that “no human driver is needed in our defined operational conditions.” This, Waymo continues, represents “fully autonomous driving technology,” with the Waymo Driver being “fully independent from a human driver.”

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#170

Post by tenpies » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 6:01 PM UTC

mrtksn wrote: post #128

qzw wrote: post #17

You know, where Theranos went wrong was not selling some other thing and then tack on their “Full blood test in just one drop” thing as an add-on. Oh and making sure it’s labeled beta . That’s very important.

If you look at the track record of Musk, you can see that he promises something futuristic and delivers something conventional but with improvements that's still desirable. Haven't Holmes imitated Jobs but Musk, today she could have been a success story. She should have still promised all your tests from a single drop of blood and keep claiming that it's coming next year and deliver classical machines but with greatl…

I think where we can all agree that Musk is a genius is in seeing where billions of public funds are going to flow, and then positioning himself to be in a position to profit.

That was a key difference between Theranos and Tesla/SolarCity.

Imagine if Elizabeth Holmes had gotten just a bit luckier with timing and had been around when the COVID pandemic occurred. Not only would she have launched a highly-futuristic COIVD test, but also received billions of funding with nearly no oversight. She almost certainly would have negotiated to receive proactive immunity from the government, like the vaccine manufacturers did.