Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#71

Post by slg » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:06 PM UTC

jakelazaroff wrote: post #4

MichaelZuo wrote: post #2

It might be a plausible argument for stuff sold 6 years ago when the future was uncertain. But in 2022 I'm not seeing how it's plausible as an excuse. Considering it's still being sold and marketed as 'Full self driving'. Clearly even level 4 autonomy is far beyond what any near future technology is capable of. If at the very least due to the fact that a very commonly encountered condition, construction work, effecti…

Pretend you don’t know anything about the different levels. You’re just a random person looking to buy a car. What does “full self driving” sound like to you?

Musk is a charlatan, but why do people act like it is common to buy $40k+ cars like picking up some gum in the checkout aisle? What the features name sounds like is not the only factor here. People don’t buys cars with that lack of thought. What the salespeople say, what the marketing material says, what the manual says, what the CEO says in public, what the feature feels like during a test drive should all matter more. This isn’t a defense of Tesla. I think it still leaves an argument for fraud, but we really need a better argument than the same “the name sounds misleading when you first hear it” argument that has been repeated for years now. If that was all it took, we all would have sued cellphone companies for their “unlimited plans”.

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#72

Post by bagels » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:06 PM UTC

toss1 wrote: post #61

>>Tesla’s Full Self-Driving technology may be a failure, Tesla lawyers admit — but it’s not a fraud. But it IS a fraud when you state or imply that it is usable with capabilities X, Y, and Z, and it actually is not. Merely calling it "Full Self Driving" is a very clear statement that the damn thing will drive itself, and do so fully . 1st DDG Definition: Full: "2. Complete in every particular." So, if is supposed to…

Tesla used to market this as "Full self driving hardware" on their website. They conveniently did not mention that you would also need the software, which still does not exist.

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#73

Post by eternalban » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:06 PM UTC

- But what really sets this product apart from others is its long-term, aspirational goals!

- You mean features?

- The problem with features is that they can also turn out to be bugs. Our innovation here was to do away with features.

- To get rid of bugs?

- That rights, to get rid of bugs: what sets aspirational goals apart from mere product features.

- But ..

- Product features can also turn out to be downright frauds. "This product features x" when it doesn't. Now that is fraud. But "this product aspires to x" and jeez, it fails to reach its goals. We're all human after all.

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#74

Post by sidibe » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:06 PM UTC

MichaelZuo wrote: post #2

It might be a plausible argument for stuff sold 6 years ago when the future was uncertain. But in 2022 I'm not seeing how it's plausible as an excuse. Considering it's still being sold and marketed as 'Full self driving'. Clearly even level 4 autonomy is far beyond what any near future technology is capable of. If at the very least due to the fact that a very commonly encountered condition, construction work, effecti…

I think 2016 it was already widely known by the industry it was going to be very difficult compared to what Tesla was saying, especially without the handicaps they imposed on themselves. No one with knowledge took Tesla's timeline seriously

> Clearly even level 4 autonomy is far beyond what any near future technology is capable of

I've always been pessimistic about FSD but I think it'd pretty hard to reconcile that quote with actual L4 deployments by Waymo and Cruise

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#75

Post by judge2020 » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:07 PM UTC

ttul wrote: post #53

Who would have thought that a camera-only system would struggle to succeed where systems that leverage $20,000 LIDAR sensors and racks of specialized machine learning hardware have met with only limited success?

The problem is making decisions based on the correct road behavior - not often do they have a problem with actual detection, even in typical/regular rain.

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#76

Post by haliskerbas » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:07 PM UTC

jakelazaroff wrote: post #4

MichaelZuo wrote: post #2

It might be a plausible argument for stuff sold 6 years ago when the future was uncertain. But in 2022 I'm not seeing how it's plausible as an excuse. Considering it's still being sold and marketed as 'Full self driving'. Clearly even level 4 autonomy is far beyond what any near future technology is capable of. If at the very least due to the fact that a very commonly encountered condition, construction work, effecti…

Pretend you don’t know anything about the different levels. You’re just a random person looking to buy a car. What does “full self driving” sound like to you?

Will not crash into stationary objects, bicyclists, pedestrians, or the cars in front of me. Will not randomly halt the car either.

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#77

Post by coolbreezetft22 » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:07 PM UTC

perardi wrote: post #19

Well fortunately Tesla has a laser-focused CEO that is devoting his time to making sure a feature which he clearly stated was absolutely critical is being responsibly developed and marketed. Really grateful for that—I’d hate to think this publicly traded company that had a sky-high valuation that was, in part, based off this promise was being led by somebody who is off in the weeds worried about social media or somet…

At this point I'd imagine Tesla is better off with Musk being distracted by his shiny new toy.

Though I'd be concerned about the effect he is having on their brand image. Even two years ago I was on the verge of buying a Tesla but ended up cancelling my order in large part because I just couldn't stand the obnoxiousness of Elon and he has gotten orders of magnitude worse since then. His new "demographic"/cult also seem to be climate change / green energy skeptics, not convinced they will be gobbling up Teslas at quite the same rate as my demographic would.

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#78

Post by fnordpiglet » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:07 PM UTC

perardi wrote: post #19

Well fortunately Tesla has a laser-focused CEO that is devoting his time to making sure a feature which he clearly stated was absolutely critical is being responsibly developed and marketed. Really grateful for that—I’d hate to think this publicly traded company that had a sky-high valuation that was, in part, based off this promise was being led by somebody who is off in the weeds worried about social media or somet…

Fired.

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#79

Post by justapassenger » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:07 PM UTC

jeffbee wrote: post #60

perardi wrote: post #19

Well fortunately Tesla has a laser-focused CEO that is devoting his time to making sure a feature which he clearly stated was absolutely critical is being responsibly developed and marketed. Really grateful for that—I’d hate to think this publicly traded company that had a sky-high valuation that was, in part, based off this promise was being led by somebody who is off in the weeds worried about social media or somet…

It must take a lot of time and attention to manage Elon. Perhaps Tesla will succeed a bit more while he is distracted.

Tesla can. But TSLA won’t, and Elon spent last 10 years making sure that their stock market value and success as a company are deeply interconnected.

Re: Tesla calls self-driving technology 'failure,' not fraud

#80

Post by ncallaway » Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:08 PM UTC

jakelazaroff wrote: post #4

MichaelZuo wrote: post #2

It might be a plausible argument for stuff sold 6 years ago when the future was uncertain. But in 2022 I'm not seeing how it's plausible as an excuse. Considering it's still being sold and marketed as 'Full self driving'. Clearly even level 4 autonomy is far beyond what any near future technology is capable of. If at the very least due to the fact that a very commonly encountered condition, construction work, effecti…

Pretend you don’t know anything about the different levels. You’re just a random person looking to buy a car. What does “full self driving” sound like to you?

Pretending I knew nothing about the levels “full self driving” sounds like it means I could safely nap in the back seat of the car while en route .