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Keep Your Identity Small (2009)

paulgraham.com

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Re: Keep Your Identity Small (2009)

#31

Post by mgrthrow »

gardenhedge wrote: post #25
Kye wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not, though. You're given all kinds of labels as you go through life whether you want it or not. If you don't act on that, you're accepting the defaults. That doesn't mean there are no labels on you.

No, not everyone is labeled by default. Labels are used to describe or identify a person or group, and not everyone uses or identifies with labels. Some people may choose to use labels to describe themselves or their experiences, while others may not feel that any existing labels accurately reflect who they are. It is ultimately up to each individual to decide whether or not they want to use labels to describe themse…

Everyone is labeled by default. Unless you weren't assigned a gender at birth, don't have a skin color, don't have sexual preferences, didn't have an economic situation you grew up in, didn't have a family with either single parents or multiple payments, etc etc

Re: Keep Your Identity Small (2009)

#32

Post by narag »

I must have missed it at the time, otherwise I would remember this gem:

Because the point at which this happens depends on the people rather than the topic, it's a mistake to conclude that because a question tends to provoke religious wars, it must have no answer.

Not sure if it depends on people or interests, probably a combination of both, but there's so many of those problems with obvious solutions that are discussed endlessly.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small (2009)

#33

Post by mgrthrow »

Kye wrote: post #27
gardenhedge wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could, in theory, make a label out of not labeling yourself but that isn't what we're talking about. I can see how labels are useful for finding community. One potential negative of using labels to find a community is that labels can be exclusive. For example, a label like "LGBTQ+" may exclude people who do not identify as part of that community, even if they have similar experiences or interests. This can create…

LGBTQ+ (and variations) are more category than label. We combine our powers because we're all too tiny to deal with all the labels and violence foisted upon us alone. Whether you can choose one of the labels is a matter of debate within the category. For most of us, it's like breathing air for the first time: "oh, I'm not alone in this. Other people feel this way, and they've fought all these battles so I don't have…

A hundred percent this. I'm not a lesbian, but I'm going to the mat if needed to protect lesbians. We protect us.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small (2009)

#34

Post by narag »

mgrthrow wrote: post #30

Doesn't land for me. I'm queer, my identity isn't huge, but it does include queer. That alone is enough to make some folks want to do violence to me (I have first hand experience with this). Telling me to "stop being x" is a bad vibe when x is something intrinsic about me AND the anti x folks hate me just for existing. I just want to live my life.

I take he's talking about ideas. Being queer, as I understand it, is not an idea but a fact, like being six feet tall or having blue eyes.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small (2009)

#35

Post by mdp2021 »

mgrthrow wrote: post #30

Doesn't land for me. I'm queer, my identity isn't huge, but it does include queer. That alone is enough to make some folks want to do violence to me (I have first hand experience with this). Telling me to "stop being x" is a bad vibe when x is something intrinsic about me AND the anti x folks hate me just for existing. I just want to live my life.

The point of PG is that to properly reason about X you have to look at it "from outside".

A mental conditioning fogs judgement. "Identifications" are mental conditionings that make you lose intellectual freedom.

An example from other authors:

> For instance, modern education often does much damage when young students are taught dubious political notions and then enthusiastically push these notions on the rest of us. The pushing seldom convinces others. But as students pound into their mental habits what they are pushing out, the students are often permanently damaged. Educational institutions that create a climate where much of this goes on are, I think, irresponsible. It is important not to thus put one’s brain in chains before one has come anywhere near his full potentiality as a rational person

~~~ Charlie Munger

Edit:

just like the mental process described by PG has a strong taste of Popper's judgement on "Marx Hegel and Freud" - a consolidated cultural idea -, the warning against "identifications" has had quite strong proponents. One of them (indirectly but encompassing) is over 2500 years old and "quite preponderant".

Re: Keep Your Identity Small (2009)

#36

Post by ivanmontillam »

Paul Graham predicted the religious wars that produce talking about React and React Native. This includes people that develop using Electron.

You cannot possibly fathom to have a productive conversation with them about less resource-hungry, better-performant alternatives.

It all basically boils down to: "Who are you to tell me I'm wrong if React is what puts food on my table?" which is fine in principle, but blinds them on ways to make their job easier and better in so many ways.

EDIT: Conciseness and style.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small (2009)

#37

Post by kossTKR »

RajT88 wrote: post #4
kethinov wrote: post #2

Since Paul wrote that, people have made so many more things part of their identity, including JavaScript which he points out in the essay was not a particularly identity-charged topic in 2009. With the rise of the frameworks, it has become an identity-charged topic with JS devs now segregated into tribes that insist on using their preferred framework for every webapp they build. It's not about assessing the right too…

In tech, people ascribe you an identity as much as you claim one yourself. When I am not around, I have been described to people as "A DevOps guy" or "A Network Guy". People then treat me accordingly. But, being human (or an approximation thereof), I am not just one thing.

I often skip the fact that i work in tech in certain circles in the beginning. Instead i'm just a business consultant, or working with project management.

Probably a bit cowardlike but people really love to put other people in boxes and for a lot of people working in tech means "oh so you're one of those super nerdy people that is naively optimistic about technology, is socially stunted, loves infantile pop culture and has zero sense of aesthetics" as an example.

And not that there is anything wrong with being that type of person (i also have some of those traits) there is very limited elasticity in peoples image of you after you've told what you work with, at least in Scandinavia where "you are your career".

I have a friend who works on movie productions and everyone always seem to find it amazing and extrapolate all kinds of positive stuff about him, while the opposite can happen with tech and unless i also make some weird underhanded disclaimers like "I'm actually also really into x genre of music and have played since i was a kid" or "well i actually love reading obscure literature", "i actually really like travelling, that's why this career was so great for me" people will just assume i do nothing besides program 24/7 - hyperbole yes but still.

Can anyone relate?

Re: Keep Your Identity Small (2009)

#38

Post by mdp2021 »

loloquwowndueo wrote: post #20
gardenhedge wrote: post #14

Not labeling myself was something I figured out at 15/16. One thing I've never figured out it why people label themselves.

Isn’t “someone who doesn’t label oneself whereas other people do” a label? :)

It's a factual description.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small (2009)

#39

Post by gardenhedge »

mgrthrow wrote: post #31
gardenhedge wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, not everyone is labeled by default. Labels are used to describe or identify a person or group, and not everyone uses or identifies with labels. Some people may choose to use labels to describe themselves or their experiences, while others may not feel that any existing labels accurately reflect who they are. It is ultimately up to each individual to decide whether or not they want to use labels to describe themse…

Everyone is labeled by default. Unless you weren't assigned a gender at birth, don't have a skin color, don't have sexual preferences, didn't have an economic situation you grew up in, didn't have a family with either single parents or multiple payments, etc etc

Labels can be both self-imposed and given. A self-imposed label is one that a person chooses to use to describe themselves or their experiences. For example, someone might choose to use the label "vegan" to describe their dietary habits because they feel that it accurately reflects their values and beliefs. On the other hand, a given label is one that is applied to a person or group by someone else. For example, a teacher might use the label "gifted" to describe a student who excels in a particular subject. In this case, the label is not chosen by the student, but is applied to them by the teacher.

You're missing the point of the article by discussing given labels.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small (2009)

#40

Post by mdp2021 »

narag wrote: post #34
mgrthrow wrote: post #30

Doesn't land for me. I'm queer, my identity isn't huge, but it does include queer. That alone is enough to make some folks want to do violence to me (I have first hand experience with this). Telling me to "stop being x" is a bad vibe when x is something intrinsic about me AND the anti x folks hate me just for existing. I just want to live my life.

I take he's talking about ideas. Being queer, as I understand it, is not an idea but a fact, like being six feet tall or having blue eyes.

> not... but

If you act according to your Real Preference RP, then RP is a fact; if you Role-Play, it is also a constraint.

Edit: there is also a notable third position: when you act from a what you judge a Right Position RP - you do what is right. It must be noted because it may look like an "identification", but it is different in important ways.

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