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The Right to Be Lazy (1883)

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161–170 of 222 posts

Re: The Right to Be Lazy (1883)

#161

Roughly how much "work" does every person in the world need to do so that every person in the world can live a minimal but decent lifestyle? Of course, some people will want and take more than "decent", some people are disabled so its unreasonable to expect and unfair to demand for them to contribute the same amount, some people genuinely like to work all sorts of jobs (including hard labor), and speaking of, there a…

I also think this is a tricky but fun question. First off, what's minimal but decent? Maybe owning a phone with internet access and 4 changes of clothes. Eating enough nutritious food every week. Having a comfortable place to sleep, indoor plumbing and ease in moving about a 10 mile radius. Healthcare for emergencies only.

That might total the equivalent of $50/week in consumption and $20K in sunken costs per person in the developed world. Much less in developing nations.

You're thinking in terms of tens of hours when we could get by on minutes of work per day, if we optimised for comfortable survival. At the cost of stagnation. But not a bad trade-off to consider.

Re: The Right to Be Lazy (1883)

#162
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now you're just making excuses. In the USA at least, there are still small parcels of fertile land available very cheaply in isolated rural areas where no one else wants to live. Look for places in Alaska or Appalachia. If someone wants to live the 18th Century subsistence farmer lifestyle then it's totally possible. Get off the Internet and go live your dream.

This is very short sighted. 10 billions people cannot live off the land like that, and the land won’t stay cheap or undefended for long if millions of people suddenly spread out of the cities to do what you say. We’d just end up with tribes defending their land because isolated people are vulnerable. It won’t solve the issue of involuntary labour, if anything it would make it worse for quite a lot of people as it is…

I never claimed that billions of people can live that way. I was merely responding to @FooBarBizBazz's comment above, pointing out that they can live that way if they really want to. There are others living that lifestyle voluntarily right now. Personally I think it would be miserable, but the option exists for those who really want it.

In developed countries at least, most labor is voluntary. There are certainly cases where people have been trafficked and essentially held as slaves, and we should do everything possible to stop those, but such cases are rare.

Re: The Right to Be Lazy (1883)

#163

The famous r/antiwork interview is all a fantastic example of where this attitude gets you. https://youtu.be/3yUMIFYBMnc Honestly, being Doreen seems like a nightmare and we should aspire to be better.

I was really puzzled by the comments under the video - people acting as if Doreen really set himself on fire somehow - while to me he seems to have set himself up quite well. He walks dogs for a few hours a day, and it lets him do other stuff he cares about, like reading people's arguments on the internet!

Re: The Right to Be Lazy (1883)

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Like rich food, idleness only seems desirable when you don't get enough of it. I think we were designed to work, just as we were designed to eat a certain amount of fiber, and we feel bad if we don't. This is certainly not a new perspective; it's what I was taught growing up. It sounds profound, but I take some umbrage with it, because it stops short. What kind of work? How much? For whom? It's a terribly convenien…

What's the point of "being focused, exerting mental effort, being creative, having long-term goals or engaging in long-term endeavours, &c." if it's not beneficial to society in some way? Also, PG is explicitly talking about people doing things that they enjoy at least to some extent. That's what motivates them to stay active. Not very different from your example of sports - except that sports are rarely helpful to o…

> What's the point of "being focused, exerting mental effort, being creative, having long-term goals or engaging in long-term endeavours, &c." if it's not beneficial to society in some way?

PG's statement [1] seemed to be about individuals, so the point is that doing x, y, z is beneficial to the individual.

I may have misunderstood, but the only other interpretation of his statement I can think of (besides "we were designed to work, and somone will feel bad if they don't") is "we were designed to work, and if we don't work enough, something will happen to our society or our environment, and then that something will cause most of us to feel bad", and that's a bit of a leap.

[1] i.e. "I think we were designed to work, ..., and we feel bad if we don't."

———

> Also, PG is explicitly talking about people doing things that they enjoy at least to some extent.

I think it's somewhat beside the point, or at least it's not enough, to find some amount of enjoyment in one's work. Is it how you would choose to spend your time? Are there ways you can spend your time that would be better for you? Those are more important questions, I think.

And notably, PG is implying that we wouldn't choose to work enough, that the motivation we have is insufficient to get us to work as much as we'd need to not feel bad. After all, if we enjoyed working enough, we'd work as much as we needed, and there wouldn't any reason for PG to suggest that people need to be forced to work (by making an analogy with the claim that "the healthiest diet is the one our ancestors were forced to eat").

It's possible that for us to feel good, we need to be forced to do things, and that left to our own devices, as individuals, we'd never muster the cleverness to overcome our ill-serving desires or aversions. In fact, if we evolved in the constant presence of scarcities and abundances that our desires and aversions precisely counteract, it seems likely! [2] But why should we trust the business owners, who control their workers, or the wealthy or politically powerful, who want to maintain the status quo, to be the ones to force us? Why can't each of us pick who it is we want to help us by imposing structure in our lives?

[2] I actually don't believe this in the case of "not feeling bad", although I believe it for health. There is natural selection for behaviors promote healthiness, almost definitionally, but I can't think of any compelling reason for there to be evolutionary pressure for us not to suffer or not have contradicting desires that can't be simultaneously satisfied. In fact, designing intelligent life to be perpetually dissatisfied and wanting improvement seems like an excellent strategy for ensuring its perpetuation.

Re: The Right to Be Lazy (1883)

#165

This is from 140 years ago but feel very modern "The manufacturers have lost their bearings and know not which way to turn. They can no longer find the raw material to satisfy the lawless depraved passion of their laborers for work. In our woolen districts dirty and half rotten rags are raveled out to use in making certain cloths sold under the name of renaissance, which have about the same durability as the promises…

In a similar vein, every once in a while I feel like the Luddites were onto something.

Re: The Right to Be Lazy (1883)

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, clothes from Target might be relatively durable considering the price. But you need more clothing now. In a lot of places, it is socially unacceptable to wear the same thing for days in a row, even if you change your undergarments. You also don't have a realistic choice to make your own clothing. Cloth, thread, buttons and zippers aren't cheap and it became more out of reach in the late 80s and through the 90's…

I wear the same jeans almost every day. Move past social convention.

As long as it's a uniform, muted colour and you don't get it stained, nobody will know if you're wearing the same pants or shirts every day.

Re: The Right to Be Lazy (1883)

#167
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wear the same jeans almost every day. Move past social convention.

As long as it's a uniform, muted colour and you don't get it stained, nobody will know if you're wearing the same pants or shirts every day.

Levi's 1954 501z. Quality denim doesn't require regular washing.

In another life, I did wear a uniform so these things might be linked.

Re: The Right to Be Lazy (1883)

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other had, we are a lot better at making things out of cheap materials. Clothes from Target are relatively durable considering the price, especially if you do basic repairs like they would have back then. Even the food is probably better now. It's not perfect, but modern products are pretty amazing. A shirt can sell for $2 and last 20 years in some cases. Of course sweatshops and pollution are still awful.

Sure, clothes from Target might be relatively durable considering the price. But you need more clothing now. In a lot of places, it is socially unacceptable to wear the same thing for days in a row, even if you change your undergarments. You also don't have a realistic choice to make your own clothing. Cloth, thread, buttons and zippers aren't cheap and it became more out of reach in the late 80s and through the 90's…

Boo hoo. The fact that society has upgraded is no argument against clothes getting cheaper, an absolute gain. The issue of repairability is mostly one of demand: almost no one wants to repair his own clothes, given how inexpensive they've become. Electronics and appliances are the same. For many people, it's not worth repairing something that can be bought new for a day's or even a week's wages. If people started valuing repair more, then you'd see more products with it available. Repairability is an extra feature, and costs more, something people don't want to pay for.

Re: The Right to Be Lazy (1883)

#169
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

social status is, by definition, cultural, and cultural values are malleable. i think it's also worth pointing out that work is perhaps not so connected to status as may be assumed. there is plenty of work that provides no status, and it seems to me that higher-status people work less.

After you acquire a certain amount of resources, you’re able to care less about increasing your social status-for what else does “more social status” bring, if not more resources. I’m unable to avoid thinking back, again and again, as Shohreh Aghdashloo voices Avasarala in The Expanse talking about how they have UBI (Basic) because they can’t provide enough jobs-and if you take it you can’t work. We’re heading direct…

The things that people really want and which signal high status will always be scarce. You can't make more real estate in desirable areas. Ferrari intentionally limits production numbers to create artificial scarcity.

Re: The Right to Be Lazy (1883)

#170

The famous r/antiwork interview is all a fantastic example of where this attitude gets you. https://youtu.be/3yUMIFYBMnc Honestly, being Doreen seems like a nightmare and we should aspire to be better.

I was really puzzled by the comments under the video - people acting as if Doreen really set himself on fire somehow - while to me he seems to have set himself up quite well. He walks dogs for a few hours a day, and it lets him do other stuff he cares about, like reading people's arguments on the internet!

I think it was because he was the worst possible poster child for that "movement", and made it seem like a joke from immature, psychologically troubled hermits.
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