Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Debunking common myths about the Autobahn

blog.datawrapper.de

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 173 posts

Re: Debunking common myths about the Autobahn

#111

Post by bluecalm »

MomoXenosaga wrote: post #93
ttyyzz wrote: post #19

I come from Germany / Bavaria. I've been driving on the A8 autobahn between Stuttgart and Munich for many years. About 2.5 years ago, the maximum speed of 120 was introduced in a 10 km long section near Augsburg, from 6 a.m. to 8 p.m. There are some many exits in quick succession. It is generally very dangerous when people traveling at very high speeds (i.e. people who are just driving there) meet people who are trav…

There is a conundrum that you see in the Netherlands: make perfect, immaculate highways and people will start getting bored and floor the pedal because even 130 will seem slow. "I can easily drive faster here" Not a problem in 1970 when barely any car could reach that speed but in a modern automobile you can zip along. So they had to fix this problem with speed cameras every few kilometres to keep people in check.

There is a solution which EU is actually implementing: automatic speed limiters in every car. Unfortunately the auto industry lobbies successfully to delay it and cripple it so instead of having it obligatory in every car 10 years ago we will have a crippled version of it in some cars (new ones) starting in a year. It's a start though. 20 more years and the problem will be solved.

Re: Debunking common myths about the Autobahn

#112

Post by greatgib »

saeranv wrote: post #104
greatgib wrote: post #99

There are good points to discuss on this topic, but my opinion is that this "debunking" is full of junk with twisted facts or "opinion" being confused with facts. From my own experience driving there, I noticed that the average speed on the left lanes are usually around 160 with faster cars around 180. But the truth is that with the traffic, it is very rare that you can go fast because when there start to be a reason…

> There are good points to discuss on this topic, but my opinion is that this "debunking" is full of junk with twisted facts or "opinion" being confused with facts. You should carefully reread your own post, its actually all opinion being confused for facts! It's very striking, since the original article not only supports its claims with data and cited sources, but specifically refutes the points your making. Did you…

Hum what you write does not make sense.

First I don't give you "opinion", but the fact of my personal experience driving there. I dare you to tell me what is not factual in what I said. To be noted that I did not formulate conclusion/opinion based on my observation.

Second, I know that the article looks to be debunking with facts but if you read carefully you will see that a lot are biased or not really adequately justified.

  the costs from time lost with a limit of 130 km/h were more than offset by the economic benefits of preventing traffic accidents.
Here for example, you compare apple and carrots. I don't doubt that a study somewhere tried to put an "economic value" to the time lost for a driver and to estimate an economic value of fatalities. But that is really shaddy.

Another example, there are a comparison of accidents on speed limited highways vs non speed limited parts in Germany. But this is again comparing apple and carrots. Roads are not the same, it is not like we had 2 times the same slice of road and decided to have one with speed limit and the other one without to see which is the best one. As they are all in Germany, you can assume that the one that are speed limited already have a reason for that or they would be unlimited. Maybe the limit itself is a signal to drivers that the area is more dangerous and to be more cautious.

And also, there is the possibility that as the drivers are free for unlimited speed on some parts of highways, they don't have frustration regarding that and then they are more serious in respecting speed limits where it is limited. But if all highways were limited, they would be a higher number of drivers driving dangerously slightly exceeding the mandatory speed limit, and that now could happen anywhere, even where there was already speed limits before.

A last point is that there is not even a justification of why limiting to 130 and not 140 or 100. It is a totally arbitrary value.

Re: Debunking common myths about the Autobahn

#113

Post by kmlx »

bluecalm wrote: post #111
MomoXenosaga wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a conundrum that you see in the Netherlands: make perfect, immaculate highways and people will start getting bored and floor the pedal because even 130 will seem slow. "I can easily drive faster here" Not a problem in 1970 when barely any car could reach that speed but in a modern automobile you can zip along. So they had to fix this problem with speed cameras every few kilometres to keep people in check.

There is a solution which EU is actually implementing: automatic speed limiters in every car. Unfortunately the auto industry lobbies successfully to delay it and cripple it so instead of having it obligatory in every car 10 years ago we will have a crippled version of it in some cars (new ones) starting in a year. It's a start though. 20 more years and the problem will be solved.

> automatic speed limiters in every car.

this is literally the nightmare of every driver.

Re: Debunking common myths about the Autobahn

#114

Post by superice »

The problem I have with this is always the “when is it enough”? Setting is speed limit of 130 is not unreasonable. But the exact same arguments apply for a speed limit of 120. Or 100. Or 80. Or 60. Or 30.

It basically the same as the Apple CSAM issue: where is acceptable to impose restrictions to freedom, or to impose inconvenience, for a marginal improvement to safety.

It’s frustrating to see essentially the same issue come up so many times, without having any real framework to discuss it. (See: gun-laws, speed limits, CSAM-scanners, porn internet filters like in the UK). It makes it very easy for the side advocating for stricter regulations to twist the argument into something that cannot easily be countered (“Think of the children! You surely don’t want [bad thing] to happen?!”)

Re: Debunking common myths about the Autobahn

#115

Post by bluecalm »

DiggyJohnson wrote: post #12
KindAndFriendly wrote: post #4

Just like the gun debate in the US, the speed limit debate in Germany has at its core nothing to do with rational arguments. It is about perceived restriction, limiting personal freedom, and potentially taking away a right people are used to.

How is > limiting personal freedom, and potentially potentially taking away a right people are used to not a rational concern? Sure you might personally be of a different opinion, but to claim these things can’t be the subject of a rational argument is absurd.

It's not absurd because even presenting facts like: driving fast is more dangerous, induce fear in many other drivers, cause more pollution including noise pollution, is wasteful (less efficient fuel/component wear wise) meets resistance.

The rational argument would be: "I know more people will die in accidents, more will get cancer, more will live with uncomfortable noise levels and more will travel stressed and in fear but I value this less than my freedom to go 200+km/h.

You about never hear that though because supporting high or no speed limits goes hand in hand with delusional thinking about dangers and harms of driving.

Re: Debunking common myths about the Autobahn

#116

Post by Delemono »

kmlx wrote: post #113
bluecalm wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a solution which EU is actually implementing: automatic speed limiters in every car. Unfortunately the auto industry lobbies successfully to delay it and cripple it so instead of having it obligatory in every car 10 years ago we will have a crippled version of it in some cars (new ones) starting in a year. It's a start though. 20 more years and the problem will be solved.

> automatic speed limiters in every car. this is literally the nightmare of every driver.

I'm a driver and would prefer that.

I drive to go from a to b and not to race.

I care more about not getting a fine than traveling as fast as possible

Re: Debunking common myths about the Autobahn

#117

Post by bluecalm »

kybernetyk wrote: post #52

Typical article by a lefty who wants to ban fun.

So many ways to have fun with speed: downhill mountain biking, kite surfing, skiing, snowboarding, car or motorcycle racing on a closed circuit. If that's not enough speed you can get into aviation and learn to pilot small aircrafts.

If you have to do it on public roads at least get a motorcycle, they are faster than 99%+ of cars even in performance category and you feel speed much more but at least you take your fair share of risk of your recklessness.

Instead you want to have fun in the most isolated dull way at the maximum cost to those around you. Maybe those lefties are onto something you know - letting others live their lives in peace without worrying about fun having maniacs killing them on their way home.

Re: Debunking common myths about the Autobahn

#118

Post by Ekaros »

ziml77 wrote: post #36

"Fatalities per 1,000 kilometers of motorway" That doesn't seem like a very good metric to me. There's no way there's any single number that can properly compare driving deaths between countries, but shouldn't this at least be normalized to account for number of drivers? Like what if Finland just has a lot of long, empty roads? Also doesn't there need to be a comparison within the German data on deaths on roads with…

Finland doesn't have lot of motorways. So they are pretty well taken care of and possibly only risk is hitting a bridge. As there is quite wide shoulders. Add to this density is pretty low so in many parts there is not much traffic.

There is lot of highways though. And those can be middle of forest with 80 speed limit. So losing control and hitting upcoming traffic or tree is much more likely.

Re: Debunking common myths about the Autobahn

#119

Post by aivisol »

Delemono wrote: post #116
kmlx wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> automatic speed limiters in every car. this is literally the nightmare of every driver.

I'm a driver and would prefer that. I drive to go from a to b and not to race. I care more about not getting a fine than traveling as fast as possible

I am a driver to for some three decades or so and noticed when you watch the speedometer you generally don’t get fines.

Re: Debunking common myths about the Autobahn

#120

Post by withinboredom »

kmlx wrote: post #113
bluecalm wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a solution which EU is actually implementing: automatic speed limiters in every car. Unfortunately the auto industry lobbies successfully to delay it and cripple it so instead of having it obligatory in every car 10 years ago we will have a crippled version of it in some cars (new ones) starting in a year. It's a start though. 20 more years and the problem will be solved.

> automatic speed limiters in every car. this is literally the nightmare of every driver.

As long as it can be turned off when it malfunctions, why is it a nightmare? At least in the Netherlands, most people are going the speed limit or near it. Everyone stays to the right unless passing. In this case, it doesn’t sound like a nightmare.

Somewhere like the US or where people speed often, yeah, it sounds like this feature could get you killed. Like somewhere like Atlanta, you’d probably get rear ended fairly quickly driving the speed limit on the interstate.

Post reply on HN