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The Twitter Files Part 2: Twitter's Secret Blacklists

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Re: The Twitter Files Part 2: Twitter's Secret Blacklists

#491
post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They surreptitiously colluded with congressmen and FBI spooks to suppress political speech before an election. I think you’re missing the bigger story here.

Ok, let's say they did, it's a private company, 1st Amendment doesn't apply in the manner you seem to think. In fact it's the opposite, they as an entity / company have 1st Amendment rights to do as they please with content on their platform. That being said, yes they suppressed propaganda and disinformation that could lead to bodily harm (as on J6). People like Fox News hosts pushing disinformation that could lead t…

> It's a private company

Twitter benefits from network effects, which makes them immune to an extent from the normal rules of private-sector competition. Telephone carriers have to carry certain speech, your power company can't shut off your power because they don't like your speech, etc… Arguably the major social media platforms are in a similar position.

Twitter also colludes with government officials, as revealed in the previous "Twitter files" installment.

> they suppressed propaganda

I just checked the Twitter Rules [1], the Rules don't forbid "propaganda".

And I just checked the definition of "propaganda" [2], seems like it includes many things that nobody alleges is against the Rules (for example, any political ad, no matter what it advocates, is "propaganda").

[1] https://help.twitter.com/en/rules-and-policies/twitter-rules

[2] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/propaganda

Re: The Twitter Files Part 2: Twitter's Secret Blacklists

#492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now the head of Trust & Safety is admitting the screenshots were "requested" from her[0]. This was hardly a balanced investigation. [0] https://twitter.com/ellagirwin/status/1601084794288640000

It's a bit of a mess really. Musk fired the deputy general counsel the other day, commenting shortly afterward that he had only learned about the man's previous stint in a similar role at the FBI on Sunday. People quickly pointed out that Musk had actually commented on the tweets about that person and his FBI connections last April. I feel that what we're seeing is largely investigation theater designed to validate a…

That's exactly what it is, and I'm beginning to believe that the only winning move is not to play.

Re: The Twitter Files Part 2: Twitter's Secret Blacklists

#493

I have been responsible a bit of content moderation myself, and interacted with mods on various forums. It's possible that this is responsible for some of my views, summarized here. - The "secret" aspect of all this can be largely ignored. Twitter is under no obligation to tell its users exactly how their Tweets are moderated. I am sure most moderation tools are secret, including whatever Twitter (or for that matter,…

> The "secret" aspect of all this can be largely ignored. Twitter is under no obligation to tell its users exactly how their Tweets are moderated

Let's play a hypothetical game. If restaurants were under no obligations to tell you what ingredients were in their food, but some did anyway, would that change your restaurant eating habits? If so, how?

Re: The Twitter Files Part 2: Twitter's Secret Blacklists

#494
post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are literal fascists within the alt-right, and the conservatives as a whole have failed to distance themselves sufficiently from them. “If there's a Nazi at the table and 10 other people sitting there talking to him, you got a table with 11 Nazis.” Nick Fuentes is a fascist. He has complimented Hitler and Putin - even saying the media comparing Putin to Hitler “as if that wasn't a good thing.” He holds a variet…

> “If there's a Nazi at the table and 10 other people sitting there talking to him, you got a table with 11 Nazis.” Wow, this Nazism stuff is super contagious! I shudder to think that most of the world has caught it by now.

You jest but fascism was and is super contagious.

The Nazis went from a fringe political movement to a solid minority voice (with 20% of the seats and about 33% of the vote). Then came the Reichstag Fire and heavy repression of opposition - getting them to 44% of votes in a “free” election. And then came the Enabling Act and there were no more votes.

What this saying means ultimately is that enabling fascism via silence makes people anti-democratic. It does not take many people passively sitting out of the way for authoritarian regimes to take power - and they are only removed by the bullet box not the ballot box.

I will note I can’t find the providence for this saying actually existing in post WW2 Germany and it is likely a modern invention. It is nonetheless a true sentiment of some of the soul searching German and other fascist ruled societies made after WW2.

Re: The Twitter Files Part 2: Twitter's Secret Blacklists

#496

I don't understand how this is difficult to understand. Twitter lied about their activities, and they targeted conservatives and the political right. Those are facts. Inexcusable. Elon is pro-regulation in a non-deceitful manner. He's solving the problem.

And then some people downvote my comment. Probably the same intolerant cancel culture activists that plagued twitter.

Re: The Twitter Files Part 2: Twitter's Secret Blacklists

#497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Handpicking journalists, and then laying down requirements for them to follow, vs something like the Panama papers where every news agency was granted access. Those things are not the same.

The only requirement was that the story be broken on Twitter. Hardly the most chafing restriction a journalist has ever been subjected to.

The only requirement we've been told ...

Re: The Twitter Files Part 2: Twitter's Secret Blacklists

#498
post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting though these points are (and I'm familiar, as I am personally acquainted with DiResta), I think you are looking at this issue in too abstract a manner. Ther's no obligation to have dialog with others who are actively threatening to kill you. Don't owe them a conversation or even a hearing. I don't disagree with your characterization that 'the left claims the right is hateful, the right claims the left is…

> Ther's no obligation to have dialog with others who are actively threatening to kill you. I never said there was. Even free speech law has limits and may punish such speech. What I advocate is for authors of secretly removed content to be able to discover the removal, because even if the comment is vitriolic, the offending author may perceive the lack of a response as tacit approval of their words. > But there is a…

I'm aware of what you're advocating because you repeat it so often. I have no objection to your points about discoverability (indeed I mentioned else where that sufficiently obnoxious tweets could be highlighted as ban-worthy, rather than simply being removed - although this wouldn't mitigate the harm done by posting slurs etc.

It's a little odd to me that you contemplate hypotheticals like 'perceiving the lack of response as tacit approval.' It's not that this is incorrect, but that you're overlooking evidence of the alternative: when platforms like Twitter or FB leave posts up (to gather both argument and support) but attach some sort of note saying 'this post might be disinformation' or words to that effect.

That is what you are asking for, no? A clear signal that the social media post is disfavored by the platform operator in some way, such that the author is notified and given some context, and so is everyone else. I would appreciate if you would clarify whether or not this meets your desired standard of transparency.

The reason I bring this up is that when this approach is applied, authors of the controversial posts tend to hate it and still scream that they're being censored by being publicly shamed, or having words inserted into their social media post by the platform operator (notwithstanding the extremely obvious distinction.. Twitter has gone farther again by allowing users to add meta-commentary in the form of notes (previously birdwatch), but on controversial topics said notes are often railed against by the original author or the subject of meta-controversy by people trying to spam the note system with negative characterizations of the notes themselves.

If you're going to make transparency of moderation into your political cause (and you very much seem to approach it this way), then I think you should go all the way and address the questions of why people are not happy even when they get what you are advocating for, and just pivot to a slightly different variation of the same argument about how they're being censored and it's a terrible injustice etc.

Incidentally the definition in your 2nd link is not from Nadine Strossen; it's just a restatement of the prevailing legal standard for incitement (from Brandenburg v. Ohio) and indeed seems to be offered as such in the text. Like the 'true threat' doctrine, this definition is being interpreted in increasingly elastic fashion in our era of instantaneous mass communication.

I'm familiar with Strossen's book but also consider it to be written from a comfortable suite in an ivory tower. Like many well-intentioned idealists, she acknowledges the possibility of violence but argues that it must be met by reasoned debate and nonviolent resistance. I reject this posture, because it basically says people who are the target of violence should accept their role as punching bugs (or targets of gunfire) in exchange for the possibility of moving the conscience of elites who review circumstances, form policy, render decisions, and recognize peers (eg accepting or rejecting the validity of other states). In this mode of argument, willingness to passively sacrifice oneself is the threshold of acceptability - becoming famous for your advocacy and then dying for it like Christ, King, or Gandhi is the way to go. And conveniently, once people are dead they can be cited as moral exemplars without the troubling possibility of them reappearing and critiquing subsequent outcomes.

Oddly, I don't see Strossen or her peers throwing themselves in front of violent mobs in an attempt to bring them to moral clarity. Having at various times been arrested, attacked, beaten by a mob, and beaten by cops while engaged in wholly non-violent political activity, I do not give much weight to pure idealism that isn't grounded in cold hard reality.

This brings me back to your first link, which complains about transgender extremism and was ironically published on the first of April this year. Just in the last three weeks, we've seen a mass shooting at an LGBT club leaving 5 dead and a further 18 injured (Colorado Springs); multiple militant groups, openly armed, demonstrating against a drag queen story hour event while police looked the other way (Columbus, Ohio); well-organized attacks on electrical substations that left a whole county without power for days and happened to coincide with a drag show in the county seat (Moore County, North Carolina).

Now, my strategic assessment is that opposition to drag shows is often a convenient excuse for militant organizing and action, and if all LGBT people magically teleported away to Planet Fabulous tomorrow, the militant organizing and action would quickly pivot to some other scapegoat.

But please, don't waste my time with links about 'transgender extremism' and free speech issues unless you are willing to address the fact that those who oppose the acceptance and freedoms of LGBT folk are themselves engaged in the suppression of free speech and indeed life. I have yet to see any of the conservative/libertarian champions of free speech address the abundant right-wing attacks upon it, probably because they're scared of their own side.

And by address, I don't mean dismissing it with a truism like 'violence is illegal of course.' Rather, try providing evidence of how your preferred approach would mitigate actual and ongoing harms, and why havens of largely unrestricted speech (eg parts of 4chan) are not utopias of thoughtful discussion but rather cesspools of bigotry that celebrate and incite violence as a means to drown out discussion. It's hard for me to take you seriously when the issue you complain about at such length involves so little hardship.

Re: The Twitter Files Part 2: Twitter's Secret Blacklists

#499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the secrecy does matter. I think can immediately think of two big reasons: 1) We should censor for how things are said, instead of what is said. When censorship is carried out secretly it will inevitably trend towards abuse. One of the examples given in these leaks is that @DrJBhattacharya [1] was secretly put on a trends blacklist because of what he was saying. He's a well spoken doctor and Stanford epidemiolog…

You are using phrases like "blacklisting doctors" and "censorship" while discussing (essentially) a message board that is used to sell advertisements. I don't think that's a reasonable position. Twitter is a private company that wants to sell advertisements by enabling people to have happy conversations. Fundamentally, they are going to optimize for that, and not whatever high-minded ideals of censorship that we hold…

> If a scientist is yelling about mysterious conspiracies and causing arguments "Mysterious conspiracies" by who? By the moderators who couldn't spell mitochondria or couldn't tell the difference between gene vs allele? Insults aside, didn't history give us so many "conspiracies" that turned out to be true? Like Heliocentrism,like climate change (in case people forgot how many people denied the climate change decades ago), like the theory of continental drift, like Darwin´s evolution theory, like captalism in a communist state, like the opposite view of McCarthy in the 50s.

I mean, how can Twitter's moderators, many of whom could barely understand college-level STEM or any subject, be so sure that they are on the right side of the history?

Re: The Twitter Files Part 2: Twitter's Secret Blacklists

#500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> who argued that Covid lockdowns would harm children. Using science or using propaganda? The issue, as I'm trying to make as abundantly clear as possible, is that we still don't know what the offending tweet says. Therefore we cannot actually conclude if the down weighting was appropriate or not. If he said "I have a paper which shows that under lockdown children are performing worse on tests" then I'd be upset. But…

> Using science or using propaganda? I just checked the Twitter Rules [1], they don't forbid "propaganda". And I just checked the definition of "propaganda" [2], seems like it includes many things that nobody alleges is against the Rules (for example, any political ad is "propaganda"). [1] https://help.twitter.com/en/rules-and-policies/twitter-rules [2] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/propaganda

This is a bad faith read of my comment and the chain of conversation[0]. Spreading false and dangerous information does in fact violate Twitter's rules. As I've repeatedly said, we can't draw any strong conclusions without knowing the actual post that resulted in the ban. Without that we are just speculating and indulging in our personal biases. Please stop perpetuating this witch hunt and help demand real proof and strong evidence.

[0] I should mention that bad faith responses even violated HN's own rules. Though this is not often used (as evidence by this entire post) but is used to encourage high quality discussions. Let's try to have one.

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