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GB National Grid Status

gridwatch.templar.co.uk

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Re: GB National Grid Status

#41

Post by magnetic-recoil »

RobinL wrote: post #33
magnetic-recoil wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Offshore wind in the UK currently uses the "Contracts for Difference" payment mechanism. Operators bid to build turbines, and the best value operators get assigned areas of the sea. Then, they receive a fixed price from consumers for any electricity they generate (effectively, but there's market mechanisms in there that complicate the accounting). Initially, this was much more expensive than fossil electricity, but t…

I've always wondered under the mechanism who has benefited from higher energy prices in the UK? With consumers currently paying high prices, who's getting the difference between the CfD price and the market price for energy generated by wind. Is it the government do you know?

Wind farm operators sell their power onto the market (they can sell however they like, but the reference price is calculated according to the day-ahead spot price).

Any imbalance between the agreed price and the reference price is sent to the LCCC (Low Carbon Contracts Company, part of the government).

The LCCC then re-charges any CfD payments or surplus funds to the electricity suppliers. This should eventually work its way into an increase or reduction in household energy bills. So the end consumer should get the difference between the wholesale and CfD price, in theory. This is also taken into account when the OFGEM price cap is calculated.

To answer your question about who benefits from high electricity prices - mostly fossil fuel producers, but also fossil power stations, legacy renewable generators with direct subsidies rather than CfDs, and electricity market traders exploiting the volatility.

Re: GB National Grid Status

#42

Post by RobinL »

magnetic-recoil wrote: post #41
RobinL wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always wondered under the mechanism who has benefited from higher energy prices in the UK? With consumers currently paying high prices, who's getting the difference between the CfD price and the market price for energy generated by wind. Is it the government do you know?

Wind farm operators sell their power onto the market (they can sell however they like, but the reference price is calculated according to the day-ahead spot price). Any imbalance between the agreed price and the reference price is sent to the LCCC (Low Carbon Contracts Company, part of the government). The LCCC then re-charges any CfD payments or surplus funds to the electricity suppliers. This should eventually work…

thanks - very interesting!

I think that also clarifies something I'd found confusing: that the spot price is currently effectively determined by the price of gas, and yet the UK consumer is benefitting from the presence of wind generation (which generates much cheaper power than gas)

If I've understood your post correctly, this is because the electricity companies don't directly pass the spot price onto consumers. Instead when the price to consumers is calculated, the part attributable to wind is taken account of at the lower price.

So effectively the marginal price to consumers is actually affected by the average cost of generation (which is turn, from an economic point of view is arguably undesirable, because it means consumers don't have sharp enough incentives to save electricity at the margin)

Re: GB National Grid Status

#43

Post by leg100 »

thomond wrote: post #23
pydry wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>No people to object about it I'm not sure whether this MP was in the pocket of gas, coal or nuclear interests or whatever but he successfully rounded up residents to NIMBY what would have been the biggest wind farm to date even though it would have barely have been visible. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navitus_Bay_wind_farm I was bitter before. Doubly so now electricity prices are through the roof.

> Doubly so now electricity prices are through the roof. Electricity prices would still be through the roof. The prices are all set on the international markets.

> Electricity prices would still be through the roof. The prices are all set on the international markets.

Only to the extent that electricity can be imported and exported via international connectors, which are of course limited in their capacity.

Prices are not set internationally, but domestically. Energy is not a tangible, stored commodity like coal which is internationally priced.

If what you said was true then America's electricity would be priced the same as Europe's, whereas it is way cheaper.

Therefore building out additional electricity production in the UK could well lower prices, depending on matching of demand and supply, agreed prices in contracts, length of contracts, etc, and of course whether additional connectors are deployed.

Re: GB National Grid Status

#44

Post by jonatron »

taxicabjesus wrote: post #35

On Friday, December 9th at ~4:00pm GMT (Greenwich mean time): Nuclear: 5.25 GW Wind: 3.84 GW Combined Cycle Gas Turbines: 23.31 GW Solar (Estimated): 0.35GW Installed Wind Capacity (onshore + offshore): 25 GW [0] Installed Solar Capacity: 13.4 GW [1] Total installed Wind/Solar: 38.4 GW. Total produced: 4.11 GW Wind is currently producing 15% of its installed capacity. Solar is producing 2.6% of its installed capacity…

There's a few things that help with periods of low wind:

    More long distance transmission / interconnects
    Vehicle-to-grid
    Grid scale battery storage
    Domestic and commercial battery storage (Powerwall etc)
    Seasonal thermal storage - large insulated tanks or ground source heat pumps
These all exist, and there will be more new technology coming. It doesn't seem like an unsolvable problem.

Re: GB National Grid Status

#45

Post by michaelt »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #4

Ok, I must have missed this but ... Wind produces 16% of UK electricity, and nuclear produces 13% .... Ok wow. I assumed solar would be the thing that takes over, and In Spain that's probably true. But here it seems wind is going to be a win. Anyway I still need to work out how to spend my declining years - how to write software for renewable energy farms ... wind or solar.

> I assumed solar would be the thing that takes over

Solar in the UK is highly seasonal. A ~4kW installation that generated 500kWh in June might only produce 50kWh in December [1] - whereas a ~4kW install in Spain might generate 700kWh in June and 200kWh in December [2]

So if you want power output in December, Solar in the UK isn't the best choice :)

[1] https://pvoutput.org/aggregate.jsp?id=43099&sid=39381&v=0&t=... [2] https://pvoutput.org/aggregate.jsp?id=91812&sid=81184&v=0&t=...

Re: GB National Grid Status

#46

Post by stuaxo »

snickmy wrote: post #8
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #4

Ok, I must have missed this but ... Wind produces 16% of UK electricity, and nuclear produces 13% .... Ok wow. I assumed solar would be the thing that takes over, and In Spain that's probably true. But here it seems wind is going to be a win. Anyway I still need to work out how to spend my declining years - how to write software for renewable energy farms ... wind or solar.

In UK wind is actually broadcasted to take over. After the new line connecting with Norway (for hydro storage) the majority of investments are going into wind. On Nuclear, I think right now there is 1 big nuclear plan offline for maintenance so there might be some of that too. In the Mediterranean area, while there is more prevalence of solar, it's not a clear winner either. For instance in Italy there is quite an ag…

The Tories said no to onshore wind, now solar is getting really cheap they are banning the building of solar on most farms (by reclassifying low quality land as higher quality land that must be used for food).

At the same time they are thinking about allowing wind on land again (probably because it will no longer be the cheaper option).

Given their links to fossil fuel interests it comes across as delaying tactics.

Re: GB National Grid Status

#47

Post by DrScientist »

pydry wrote: post #17
DrScientist wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK is one of the best positioned countries in the world in terms of natural wind resource. This is because large parts of the north sea are shallow/have banks that very large offshore wind farms can be built on. No terrain to get in the way, no people to object about it being close to their house. Scotland is also windy and not that populated and so has quite a few onshore farms. Eg see. https://orsted.com/en/med…

>No people to object about it I'm not sure whether this MP was in the pocket of gas, coal or nuclear interests or whatever but he successfully rounded up residents to NIMBY what would have been the biggest wind farm to date even though it would have barely have been visible. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navitus_Bay_wind_farm I was bitter before. Doubly so now electricity prices are through the roof.

Didn't know about that one.

I note that the successful argument was based on the imagined impact to the tourism industry, rather than the visual effect per se.

Re: GB National Grid Status

#49

Post by IMSAI8080 »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #4

Ok, I must have missed this but ... Wind produces 16% of UK electricity, and nuclear produces 13% .... Ok wow. I assumed solar would be the thing that takes over, and In Spain that's probably true. But here it seems wind is going to be a win. Anyway I still need to work out how to spend my declining years - how to write software for renewable energy farms ... wind or solar.

Yeah wind is going well these days. The annual average is around 30%. I've seen it at 60% on a good day.

Re: GB National Grid Status

#50

Post by rr888 »

pydry wrote: post #17
DrScientist wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK is one of the best positioned countries in the world in terms of natural wind resource. This is because large parts of the north sea are shallow/have banks that very large offshore wind farms can be built on. No terrain to get in the way, no people to object about it being close to their house. Scotland is also windy and not that populated and so has quite a few onshore farms. Eg see. https://orsted.com/en/med…

>No people to object about it I'm not sure whether this MP was in the pocket of gas, coal or nuclear interests or whatever but he successfully rounded up residents to NIMBY what would have been the biggest wind farm to date even though it would have barely have been visible. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navitus_Bay_wind_farm I was bitter before. Doubly so now electricity prices are through the roof.

Scotland has one of the biggest gas fields in Europe, why should it rely on ugly and unreliable Wind turbines? Esp Global Warming probably makes Scotland's climate more comfortable, and its proximity to Greenland means sea levels might even fall.
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