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The Twitter Files Part 2: Twitter's Secret Blacklists

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Re: The Twitter Files Part 2: Twitter's Secret Blacklists

#321
post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Problem is that there is a reason shadow bans exist. It prevents nefarious actors from easily probing the limits of their content moderation processes. It really is funny how Musk is just taking Twitter back to the start.

I think the issue is not that this feature exists, but that it was abused to silence criticisms primarily from the right, while at the same time twitter denied this.

If it was done in secret how could you know it was abused to silence criticisms primarily from the right?

Re: The Twitter Files Part 2: Twitter's Secret Blacklists

#322
post #195
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assumed shadow banning was invented for forums to hide low quality users without giving them a signal to create a new account.

But when they do eventually figure it out, they end up hoping from one newly created account to another. Unless using new accounts are prohibitively expensive, and they usually aren't, then you'll end up just replacing one problem with another. The correct way to moderate is to be civil and treat "low quality" users as human beings. Reserve inhuman bans for inhuman users (bots).

What do you do when those 'low quality' users are sending rape threats to specific users? Or stalking them in this scenario? The police aren't going to do anything because it's barely an actionable threat and hard to trace.

The entire reason shadowbans exist and have existed for decades is because there's an inherently unsolvable problem with certain users that extremely fixate on certain users or communities. If you think they can be treated by being civil then I don't think you've been a moderator for any extensive period.

Re: The Twitter Files Part 2: Twitter's Secret Blacklists

#323

These “Twitter Files” have been so disappointing. I was really expecting to see some crazy stuff, but all I’m seeing is a company that was moderating their content. Even the incident that Weiss points out of someone being doxxed and Twitter doing nothing about it happened under Elon’s rule, and was probably not moderated because of the chaos that Elon created. Even the people that were “shadow banned” makes sense, I’…

libsoftiktok has not ben actively shutting down children's hospitals. They have been reposting public information from the hospitals that they find objectionable, such as encouraging young children to have life altering surgery, that has been stopped in other countries because of the potential for harm[1].

There readers have also expressed outrage at the objectionable activities and raised concerns with whoever would listen.

[1] https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-62335665

Re: The Twitter Files Part 2: Twitter's Secret Blacklists

#324
post #321
post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the issue is not that this feature exists, but that it was abused to silence criticisms primarily from the right, while at the same time twitter denied this.

If it was done in secret how could you know it was abused to silence criticisms primarily from the right?

Because people can see that their message that used to get x retweets and likes, is now only getting y which is far less. It is very common to see people complain about being shadow banned on twitter, and not knowing for what, or why.

Re: The Twitter Files Part 2: Twitter's Secret Blacklists

#325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Overall, I don't really see too much that would cause me to gasp with horror. I didn't "gasp", but, silently blocking an esteemed scientist is indeed horrible. He, and who knows how many others, presented sensible analyses against extended lockdowns in schools. This dissenting view, like with the lableak theory, was systematically blocked from ever reaching journalists eyes, and thus from reaching parents minds. Th…

> The dissenting view, like with the lableak theory, was systematically blocked from ever reaching journalists eyes, and thus from reaching parents minds. I would hope that journalists conduct their research through better means than solely reading Tweets. That would be an exceptionally lazy standard, one which would merit a failing grade for a high school paper. That being said, "systematically blocked from ever rea…

Yes someone published a story in the Wall Street Journal, but this thread is talking about Twitter. Twitter is not exonerated because some other outlet did something differently.

The point here is that they were specifically responding to government requests to censor information. That is truly government overreach, but in the opposite direction to what you claim.

Re: The Twitter Files Part 2: Twitter's Secret Blacklists

#326

This all seems like a major publicity stunt. We all know that Twitter is filtering users. The question is why they are filtered. There's a clear bias to specifically show right wingers being banned but other independent sources say it is roughly even. I don't want to really see political leanings so much as I want to see the content that caused them to be flagged in the first place. If someone promotes Nazism or some…

It is there in the thread > 3. Take, for example, Stanford’s Dr. Jay Bhattacharya (@DrJBhattacharya) who argued that Covid lockdowns would harm children. Twitter secretly placed him on a “Trends Blacklist,” which prevented his tweets from trending.

> who argued that Covid lockdowns would harm children.

Using science or using propaganda? The issue, as I'm trying to make as abundantly clear as possible, is that we still don't know what the offending tweet says. Therefore we cannot actually conclude if the down weighting was appropriate or not. If he said "I have a paper which shows that under lockdown children are performing worse on tests" then I'd be upset. But if he said "The lockdown is harming our children and turning them into literal Nazis" then yeah, I do want that taken down. I'm just unwilling to speculate as to what the tweet actually said. You're putting at lot of trust in The Free Press[0], a new (self admitted) press organization that has little history[1]. In an age of misinformation we have to be constantly asking ourselves "do I believe this information because it is accurate or because it fits my preconceived notions (priors)?" Be critical of these people too. If what they are saying is true, then fair critique, as I've laid out, will roll off of them and truth will be on their side. If they aren't saying what is true, then do we also not have a duty to speak up when we find flaws in their arguments? If you want a free and fair media, we have to be able to criticize and evaluate our internal biases.

[0] https://www.thefp.com/

[1] Google them. Literally googling "thefp" doesn't come up with them. They do not seem to be associated with the advocacy group The Free Press. And one of their sources has uses MD in their username, claims in the bio that they aren't a doctor and it is their initials, ShellenbergerMS is not a taken username... Looking these individual people up, we do find a specific political bias and not a uniform one like their website claims.

Re: The Twitter Files Part 2: Twitter's Secret Blacklists

#327
I’m not really shocked. Interesting to see it all finally come out though.

People were certainly made fun of for implying that they were shadow banned (in the sense that they were more suppressed than the average user) and tons of people would outright deny it was even happening.

Re: The Twitter Files Part 2: Twitter's Secret Blacklists

#328
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not reasonable criticism, because Twitter provided their definition of "shadow-ban" at the time, and it's unambiguously not what Weiss is talking about. You can disagree with the definition Twitter chose, but you can't retcon your own definition onto Twitter's policy statements.

I'll be frank - I couldn't give a rat's ass about Weiss or Taibii. I'm not familiar with them and they're obviously trying to squeeze as much juice out of this story as they can. However, I see a lot of people here dismissing the wider and (imo) more valid complaints about veiled moderation tactics by beating up these two and calling it a day, case closed. I don't care what specific narrow definition twitter chose on…

Basically every forum uses veiled moderation tactics out of the argument that if they unveiled their techniques then they'd be defeated. Which is what dang argues on Hacker News; in fact, you can't even see if there are penalties on your HN account.

Re: The Twitter Files Part 2: Twitter's Secret Blacklists

#329
post #324
post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it was done in secret how could you know it was abused to silence criticisms primarily from the right?

Because people can see that their message that used to get x retweets and likes, is now only getting y which is far less. It is very common to see people complain about being shadow banned on twitter, and not knowing for what, or why.

Okay, so that gets us to “it seems that my account has been shadowbanned.”

Has someone compiled a dataset of users that appear to be shadowbanned, that tweet political content at least some of the time, as well as the political lean they have?

Re: The Twitter Files Part 2: Twitter's Secret Blacklists

#330
post #24

Twitter calls it "visibility filtering" [1] Facebook gives mods a "Hide comment" button [2] TikTok calls it "visible to self" [3] [4] Truth Social does it [5] [6] [7] Reddit shows all removed comments to authors as if they're publicly visible [8] Open source tools are built to do it [9] [10] Textbooks advocate "disguise a gag or ban" [11] I call it Shadow Moderation [12]. The system intentionally does not show users…

Shadowbans have existed for literally 40+ years. There have been multiple forums, platforms, channels, BBSes which try to make an egalitarian system where moderation is clear and transparent. These systems all universally fail because it fails to function at scale or it becomes easily gamed by bad faith posters or it falls apart because you get the truly fixated and toxic posters that tear your community apart.

The problem is you assume every actor is rational. That they all want to simply post in good faith. The moment you make that assumption you become a fool, someone that will be manipulated and controlled. You will get people gaslighting you into thinking they're the heroes while they've been sending threats of violence to other members of your community.

There is no good solution. I doubt there will ever be a good solution because it's trying to solve an inherent problem in the human condition.

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