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There aren't enough remote jobs to go around

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Re: There aren't enough remote jobs to go around

#31

Post by toomuchtodo »

ghaff wrote: post #23
dh2022 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This logic (we have billions in real estate investments that somehow we need to use. So let's use them by bringing people back to the office) is an example of cost sunk fallacy. The 3 multinationals I worked for are aware of this fallacy. Amazon is another example of company writing-off hundreds of millions right away (FirePhone). All this preamble just to point that there are other things beyond just "we must fill t…

It's worse than that. It presumably costs more to operate a building than to mothball it and at least try to sublease it. If there's really no value in filling the building up with people, it's a bit like deciding to drive your car around aimlessly because "I own it so I should use it."

And workers have no choice in the current setup, hence the need for labor regulation to allow for remote work if the work can legitimately be performed remotely. Otherwise, "make my assets worth it plebs." (half joking)

The UK has a law where workers have the right to request flexible work arrangements, for example: https://www.gov.uk/flexible-working

Re: There aren't enough remote jobs to go around

#32

Post by KerrAvon »

whywhywhywhy wrote: post #17
PicassoCTs wrote: post #12

So a remote job will become a trophy? If you suck, you are in the office kindergarden panopticon, until you either get good or quit?

Where’s the evidence you can deliver if it’s never been seen. Definitely people I trust no matter what their schedule. Definitely people who worked fine before pandemic and people I hired during the pandemic that are close to useless and just pretend to work if they’re not in the office.

This is not a remote/in-office question, though. You can hire someone who can't perform in-person just as easily as a remote person who can't perform. You still have to actively evaluate the performance of your new employees and ensure they have proper guidance if they need it. The leadership techniques need a bit of refinement, but it can all be done remotely.

Re: There aren't enough remote jobs to go around

#34

Post by ghaff »

mike_d wrote: post #18
whywhywhywhy wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seeing lots of people on teams very vocal about not wanting to work with remote people either and saying no to anyone that has the inkling of it. Something the remote crowd might not realize is happening.

Sounds like a pretty toxic environment. Working with remote employees is no different than working with someone in another office. Consider the pre-pandemic prevalence of "phone booths" and one person conference rooms, so you can be in a meeting as the only local attendee. As far as the other location is considered, you are remote just with access to a bigger coffee maker.

The reality with a lot of teams at many large companies is that meetings of any size will involve people in different offices/fully remote/traveling/etc. Even if I and others nominally assigned to my local office all came in, I'm not sure I'd know a single person on a given day.

Re: There aren't enough remote jobs to go around

#35

Post by none_to_remain »

whywhywhywhy wrote: post #14
mike_d wrote: post #4

This is a bold claim made on a very shaky set of data. Most companies aren't going to explicitly post jobs for remote, just because a lot of talent management platforms don't really support it well. I think the goto is to post the job as available in every location the company has an office, and see what the applicant wants to do. Of course employers want people to come back. They have millions if not billions of dol…

Seeing lots of people on teams very vocal about not wanting to work with remote people either and saying no to anyone that has the inkling of it. Something the remote crowd might not realize is happening.

For real - I'm planning to switch jobs late 2023 and "no remote" is going to be an important criterion.

Not ironclad, a place could be implementing it decently, but they'd have to do some convincing. (Being remote pre-pandemic would help.)

Re: There aren't enough remote jobs to go around

#36

Post by throwaway22032 »

KerrAvon wrote: post #27
whywhywhywhy wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seeing lots of people on teams very vocal about not wanting to work with remote people either and saying no to anyone that has the inkling of it. Something the remote crowd might not realize is happening.

I've seen those posts on HN. Something the in-person crowd might want to consider is that a lot of interesting roles are going to involve lots of work with people who aren't in the room with you no matter whether you're in office or WFH. If you go in being highly vocal about no remote work, you may not be considered for roles that aren't fully remote but do involve a lot of videoconferencing. And maybe that's OK with…

As one of these people, that is explicitly why I don't want to work remotely.

I don't want to spend my life doing Zoom calls. A quick telephone audio call for 5 minutes along the lines of "hey, are you nearly at the store" - sure. A call to avoid literally flying 5000 miles or something - if we have to.

But in general, for actual communication I want to be in the room with someone, and I think that a combination of colocating people and spending an hour or whatever on travel for clients is normally worth it for that. Hybrid office environments are an absolute non starter for me for that reason.

Re: There aren't enough remote jobs to go around

#37

Post by xboxnolifes »

whywhywhywhy wrote: post #17
PicassoCTs wrote: post #12

So a remote job will become a trophy? If you suck, you are in the office kindergarden panopticon, until you either get good or quit?

Where’s the evidence you can deliver if it’s never been seen. Definitely people I trust no matter what their schedule. Definitely people who worked fine before pandemic and people I hired during the pandemic that are close to useless and just pretend to work if they’re not in the office.

If one cannot tell if someone is being productive remotely, Its hard for me to believe they could actually tell if they were in office.

Someone sitting at a desk is not evidence of productivity.

Re: There aren't enough remote jobs to go around

#38

Post by lambdasquirrel »

mike_d wrote: post #4

This is a bold claim made on a very shaky set of data. Most companies aren't going to explicitly post jobs for remote, just because a lot of talent management platforms don't really support it well. I think the goto is to post the job as available in every location the company has an office, and see what the applicant wants to do. Of course employers want people to come back. They have millions if not billions of dol…

> Of course employers want people to come back.

Yes, and now, let's define "employers."

None of the engineers I know want to be back in the office, including a lot of folks whom I'd call a "manager." At best, we want to be there 1 or 2 days of the week, or month, or financial quarter. We always knew that we got the short end of the stick with office politics, with petty concerns like how well-dressed we were, or how tall we were, or what elitist culture people think we're from (or not).

The pandemic really showed up how much we were the losers of that whole game because of how it shifted the dynamic so that it really did become about what you did for your team. And the thing about engineering, at least on the software side, is that it's still mostly ground-up and flat. Except for a company here or there that's actually led by a McKinsey consultant, the entire engineering org isn't interested in those games, and that includes our bosses.

Re: There aren't enough remote jobs to go around

#39

Post by throw827474737 »

whywhywhywhy wrote: post #14
mike_d wrote: post #4

This is a bold claim made on a very shaky set of data. Most companies aren't going to explicitly post jobs for remote, just because a lot of talent management platforms don't really support it well. I think the goto is to post the job as available in every location the company has an office, and see what the applicant wants to do. Of course employers want people to come back. They have millions if not billions of dol…

Seeing lots of people on teams very vocal about not wanting to work with remote people either and saying no to anyone that has the inkling of it. Something the remote crowd might not realize is happening.

Sounds like a threat, and that something is what?

Also seeing enough whole companies buing fully into remote, and more and more remote teams happily working together.. and tbh there sure are jobs/people for which this doesn't work out - but then good that there is more for both sides?

For those it works it is not just a lot of saved time, the flexibility to hire anyone anywhere (a lot of people are not ready to move their whole life for a new work) but also just great for environmental impact, imo.

Re: There aren't enough remote jobs to go around

#40

Post by jayd16 »

mike_d wrote: post #18
whywhywhywhy wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seeing lots of people on teams very vocal about not wanting to work with remote people either and saying no to anyone that has the inkling of it. Something the remote crowd might not realize is happening.

Sounds like a pretty toxic environment. Working with remote employees is no different than working with someone in another office. Consider the pre-pandemic prevalence of "phone booths" and one person conference rooms, so you can be in a meeting as the only local attendee. As far as the other location is considered, you are remote just with access to a bigger coffee maker.

Its toxic to not want to be on zoom or have to book a meeting room to talk?

>no different than working with someone in another office

Given the choice, they'd likely prefer someone local in this case as well.

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